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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 5222234" data-attributes="member: 18280">I think you're making that up.Sure, some people like the style of combat 4e produces.  They like the attention to the type of detail WotC chose to focus on.  They like minis and battlemaps.  They are not really concerned with how long combat takes.  In many ways, they are prime candidates to recruit for wargames.But there is a real difference between saying "This is a feature, not a bug" and "REAL MEN know how to take it and don't whine and cry that combats take too long".After all, there are quite a few folks who, when WotC said 3e combats were taking too long, were right there on the bandwagon, who also find 4e combats -- although taking the same amount of actual time -- to be perfectly fine.  It matters what you're getting for the time you put in.No, the only place this comes up AFAICT is the idea that Bad Things can happen to your character.  There is a segment of gaming that prefers (to varying degrees) to control what Bad Things happen to their characters, and a segment of gaming that prefers (to varying degrees) to let the dice fall where they may.  And, by this, I mean the dice being able to dictate that Bad Things happen, not that the dice can fall, but the rules protect you from Bad Things happening instead.Of course, there is a lot of perception that allowing Bad Things to happen is considered wrongbadfun by a lot of folks, including the designers of 4e.  Thus, all the talk about how unfun SoD is, or SoS, etc.You are right that "I find that an important part of the fun" is a better answer than the one that typically arises, from either direction.  But the type of answer that typically arises is no better from the "new game" side than from the "old game" side.IMHO, and IME.  YMMV.Hold on.  Is that an argument that the game isn't played for enjoyment, or that the kind of enjoyment endorsed by WotC with its current game isn't what the author actually finds "fun"?  The first would support your point.The second would support mine.RC</blockquote>

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