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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 5222427" data-attributes="member: 2205">Yes.  That's what I said.  You're taking my general statements and then nitpicking them and say the same thing, basically.  We're in agreement.Yes.  Grognard has picked up (actually, already had it; I guess failed to lose it would be more accurate) an association of being old and crusty.  Newnards can't be grognards by definition, even if their behavior really is virtually identical.I rather suspect not too, because my summary is that it's an inane argument that uses rather literate language to give it the illusion of legitimacy without actually having any legitimate substance behind it.Which seems to me to be exactly what I said... except in more literate terms to make it appear to be a valid concern rather than a bunch of speculative and unsubstantiated, unsubstantiable BS that the subsequent two years or so has not born out.Which is good, but I'm talking about the initial screed, which has become a kind of niche manifesto of sorts in gamer-related internet groups.  That he's softened his approach fom the initial rant is a good thing, but it doesn't actually change the content of the initial manifesto either.I'm not arguing your point.  I'm going off in a slightly different direction.I certainly don't have any wish to see Melan as some kind of grumpy old grognard.  In fact, before I read that post (when it was new, or at least newish) I had no idea Melan was of that persuasion at all, and thought he was something completely different.  I don't see any other way in which the post could be read, based on the content of just the post itself.  Also, I'm not trying to even make any point, I'm just pointing out that the Tyranny of Fun is a poorly constructed screed full of wishful thinking, bizarre falsehoods about 4e, bizarre falsehoods (or at least they don't jive with my experience at all) about gamers in general, bizarre assertions about human behavior in general, and baseless speculation.  From this pool of highly dubious (to put it charitably) "evidence" he creates a conclusion that I obviously don't agree with.  But I'm not making a point, I'm just disagreeing with his.  And I say this as a non-fan of 4e, even.I suggest that your subsequent discussions (with Melan himself, it looks like, based on your post above) has colored your interpretation of what the initial Tyranny of Fun manifesto actually says.  I never read the whole thread.  The first post set the tone, and I found it tiring quickly.</blockquote>

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