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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Retros_x" data-source="post: 9514072" data-attributes="member: 7033171">Now we are going in circles, I'd argue the invisible condition only applies here because you are hidden and out of sight. The moment you drop from the ceiling in front of the guard you are spotted, no perception roll needed, no advantage on your attack anymore.No. The spell effect does NOT stop when you get in line of sight of someone or someone hears you. That makes the spell definitely more potent thant the hide action which you give you the same effect but with more pre- and postconditions.We have condition "invisibility" that gives you specific advantages. To get this condition you can eithera) use the hide action, with a set of requirements for getting and losing the invisibility condition.b) cast the invisibility spell, with a different set of requirements for getting and losing the invisibility condition.The set of requirements of the spell are a subset of the requirements of hide action, making the spell a more potent way to reap the advantages of the condition "invisible" , which is fair because this way cost you resources (a spellslot).One of the requirements for the hide action is that you lose the condition if an enemy spots you. The spell does NOT have this condition, only the hide action. To being spotted by an enemy they need to perceive you with their senses. If you are eg. still in darkness, or around the corner they need to roll a perception check, because their is a chance of failure to perceive your presence. If they enlighten the area or walk around the corner you were hiding, they do not need to roll a perception check, because there is no chance of failure to perceive the presence of someone who is standing in bright light in the middle of the room or who stands in front of you when you turn around the corner. *This is 99% how the rules are intented, but the phrasing is idiotic as this discussion proves. Definitely a downstep from 2014 (which already had misleading phrasings about the whole stealth and hide topic), I hope there will be some errata.[SPOILER="* A bit off topic into details how DM can handle stealth "] Of course a lot is DMs fiat, mainly because these changes of the environment or enemys action (making light, walking around the corner) could be misused by antagonistic DMs to bypass the perception roll. The DM should use common sense. A patrol for example moves around and if a hero hides around a corner in the way of a patrol than yes that was a stupid location to hide because the patrol will walk around that corner.But here a lot of fun can emerge. Instead of just saying "well thanks to your stealth roll the guard doesnt hear you waiting around the corner, but they just continue their patrol stumbling into you and yelling an alarmed shout" and completely disvaluing their roll, you give players an additional point of decision: "thanks to your good stealth roll they don't hear you approaching and peaking around the corner. But they are still coming straight in your direction and you realize that this is the exact route of their patrol and they might run direct into you anyway - what do you do?" valuing their roll while still giving consequence to their bad/unlucky hiding spot.[/SPOILER]</blockquote>

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