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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7531020" data-attributes="member: 6750235">The wizard who carries a torch for a fighter would be required to be closer to combat than the wizard who casts light on something for the fighter, a wizard holding a torch and a focus isn't holding a shield, torches don't work under water.&nbsp; No light source means attacking and being attacked with disadvantage and advantage.&nbsp; This can be covered with equipment (except under water) but equipment still costs potential benefits.&nbsp; You see something that can be replicated by equipment while I see an opportunity for +2 AC.The only time I've ever needed knock was to bypass arcane lock.&nbsp; Opening locks is incredibly easy in 5e.&nbsp; 1st level characters easily open DC 25 locks and still keep things quiet.&nbsp; If we cannot open it we can generally destroy it.&nbsp;&nbsp; We never need a rogue for locks either.&nbsp; Anyoneone can have proficiency in the tools.&nbsp; The DMG has a take 20 type rule in the section on repeat rolls.&nbsp; Knock as a spell is extremely situational and only matters if time is of the essence and no one with the skill can do it quickly.&nbsp; Crown of Madness is better in practice than it first looks.&nbsp; Forget maintaining the spell for a moment.&nbsp; The wizard casts a spell, the target loses it's action as it's forced the attack the caster's choice of target, then the target moves triggering attacks of opportunity from adjacent allies.&nbsp; That sum total is not bad for a 2nd level slot and the caster simply lets the spell end.&nbsp; No poor action economy.&nbsp; If the target does not move then the caster has the option to spend an action so that the target loses it's action attacking the caster's choice again.&nbsp; The problem isn't the action economy -- it's the fact hold person is usually a better choice outside of some situational benefits for crown of madness (like charm).Bestow being touch only matters on builds that avoid close combat.&nbsp; For the right builds it's fine.&nbsp; It's nice as a non-concentration debuff using a 5th level.&nbsp; Touch means nothing when it's a glyph on a door or window as a protective measure.&nbsp; The duration in higher level slots as a defensive measure becomes nice.&nbsp; It can be preemptive as well.&nbsp; Imagine leaving it on an enemy's door so that when he or she returns the caster has an 8-hr wibdow where the target cannot take actions without first making a will save.&nbsp;&nbsp; Unlike hold monster in a 5th level slot, bestow curse has no repeat saves to break it, no concentration required, and long duration.my 2cp</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7531020, member: 6750235"] The wizard who carries a torch for a fighter would be required to be closer to combat than the wizard who casts light on something for the fighter, a wizard holding a torch and a focus isn't holding a shield, torches don't work under water. No light source means attacking and being attacked with disadvantage and advantage. This can be covered with equipment (except under water) but equipment still costs potential benefits. You see something that can be replicated by equipment while I see an opportunity for +2 AC. The only time I've ever needed knock was to bypass arcane lock. Opening locks is incredibly easy in 5e. 1st level characters easily open DC 25 locks and still keep things quiet. If we cannot open it we can generally destroy it. We never need a rogue for locks either. Anyoneone can have proficiency in the tools. The DMG has a take 20 type rule in the section on repeat rolls. Knock as a spell is extremely situational and only matters if time is of the essence and no one with the skill can do it quickly. Crown of Madness is better in practice than it first looks. Forget maintaining the spell for a moment. The wizard casts a spell, the target loses it's action as it's forced the attack the caster's choice of target, then the target moves triggering attacks of opportunity from adjacent allies. That sum total is not bad for a 2nd level slot and the caster simply lets the spell end. No poor action economy. If the target does not move then the caster has the option to spend an action so that the target loses it's action attacking the caster's choice again. The problem isn't the action economy -- it's the fact hold person is usually a better choice outside of some situational benefits for crown of madness (like charm). Bestow being touch only matters on builds that avoid close combat. For the right builds it's fine. It's nice as a non-concentration debuff using a 5th level. Touch means nothing when it's a glyph on a door or window as a protective measure. The duration in higher level slots as a defensive measure becomes nice. It can be preemptive as well. Imagine leaving it on an enemy's door so that when he or she returns the caster has an 8-hr wibdow where the target cannot take actions without first making a will save. Unlike hold monster in a 5th level slot, bestow curse has no repeat saves to break it, no concentration required, and long duration. my 2cp [/QUOTE]

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