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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Treantmonklvl20" data-source="post: 7475346" data-attributes="member: 55582">OK (4.5x3)+(4.5+4)+(6.5x2)=34.5Yes, good call, I don't know what happened there.Yes, it will be less, as will assuming 100% hits on abilities that require "to hit" rolls.  This is with a character posting a non-impressive +7 to hit at level 9 (assuming 16 or 17 dex), with no chance of any additional plusses from magic weapons.  There are of course a lot of variables, and we can't really effectively compare Wisdom Saves vs AC of opponents, but I figured 1/2 a dozen of one...That's an excellent point, and makes  the comparison not very good, as we kind of end up comparing apples and oranges I suppose.Does it?  I chose Cleric to compare the damage of another melee spellcaster, but in my experience, neither compare to the damage of a real melee character, particularly post level 5.I'm wondering about your math now.  (8x4.5)+(3.5)+(8) is 47.5 I think.At level 14 it shoots up to 61.5.So let's see what baseline damage looks like for a melee character.I thought about this for a bit, and although Paladin does the most damage, it's not sustainable damage, so I don't think that's a fair baseline.Fighters do so much other stuff besides damage, unless they are a crit build, which doesn't really calculate if we are assuming regular hits.Barbarian is probably a good choice for comparison.  Berserker is a bad choice because I don't know how to account for the incredible downside to their rage.  I like the Zealot.  It's straight forward and mechanically good.  Let's see what kind of damage it brings at various levels.Let's be accurate.  If I include GWM it means a reduced chance to hit.  We can't just assume "always hits", these numbers don't really mean anything.Now AC varies of course.  I've seen 13+proficiency bonus thrown around a lot, so let's try that.  That means at level 11 we are looking at AC 17, and for level 14 AC 18.<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?497149-Mined-results-Average-AC-by-play-tier" target="_blank">(P.S. Somebody actually did the work on this.  Looks like these numbers are pretty close.)</a>Bladesinger level 11: we said Dex 18 so that's +8 to hit.  Crits on 20.  Hits on 9-20 (60%)So pretty easy calculation.  0.6x47.5=28.5.  0.05x39.5=1.975 (crits) = about 31 damage.At level 14, now lets say 20 Int for +5 damage to each as you suggested.  Crits on 20.  Hits on 9-20 (60%)Again, pretty easy calculation.  0.6x61.5=36.9 0.05x39.5=1.975 = about 38 damage.  Unfortunately the chance to hit does not increase since he is using a shadow blade instead of a + weapon.Barbarian should have rare magic items (+2 weapon) levels 5-10 and very rare (+3) level 11+ (see magic item by rarity in DMG). I'm assuming Rage, as 4 uses at level 11, 5 at level 12.The barbarian will reckless attack and use GWM.  We won't factor in any other possible tricks.To hit at level 11 will be 5 (str) + 4 (prof) + 2 (magic weapon) - 5 (GWM) = +6.  Hits on 11 (50%).  That's easy math, goes to 75% with reckless attack.  Chance of crit is a bit more tricky, it is actually 9.75% (0.0975) So, I dunno, we'll give him an axe.  6.5 average damage + 5 (str) + 3 (rage) + 10 (gwm) +2 (magic weapon) +  =26.5.  2 attacks total 53.  Zealot damage only adds once (8.5) so 61.50.75x61.5=46.125  crit (0.0975x6.5)=0.63375 = lets say 47 damage (technically crit damage might be higher because of zealot, but it makes it more complicated for very small difference.Now lets go to level 14.   Should I go polearm master with a glaive +3?  No, let's just say the feat is not relevant.  Give him his Axe +3 this time.To hit at level 14 will be 5 (str) + 5 (prof) + 3 (magic weapon) - 5 (GWM) = +8.  Hits on a 10 (55%).  That's harder math, but with reckless attack it's 79.75%.   Brutal critical means crits add an additional 13 damage.Damage becomes 55 with hits plus 10.5 zealot damage for 65.5.0.7975x65.5=52.23625  crit (0.0975x19.5)=1.90125 or 54 per round.So, math done (check my numbers of course!) looks like attacking an AC 17 at level 11 and AC 18 at level 12Level 11 Bladesinger with 5th level shadow blade and off-hand shortsword average damage = 31 per roundLevel 11 Barbarian with GWM rage and reckless attack = 47 per roundLevel 14 Bladesinger, same stuff = 38 per roundLevel 11 Barbarian, same stuff = 54 per roundThere's a significant disparity there.  I would say that if I'm the 3rd party with that Haste spell mentioned, I would not be putting it on the Bladesinger.  Seems like I would only get 70% of the bang for my buck.I should also mention that the Barbarian is not concentrating, so there is no chance his weapon will vanish if he's hit in combat.I should probably finish up with this: If I want max damage at 11th level, I'm not choosing a Barbarian.  Fighters and Paladins both outdamage them at this level, so these numbers aren't even particularly high, but they do serve as a baseline for what we would expect a melee character to do.I'm guessing here, but I'm fairly confident that a Bladesinger would also do more damage.  IF that bladesinger was to concentrate on animate objects instead of shadow blade and just use a rapier instead (and nothing in other hand).  The more I think about it in fact, the more certain I am.</blockquote>

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