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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nephilm X" data-source="post: 7551839" data-attributes="member: 6983866">All that thread pertains to is when to use GWM once you already have it, and not the opportunity cost of the feat vs possessing a higher ability score modifier.It has been going on for a while, so leaving aside the matters of armor, Concentration and Haste and other chaff, let's summarize the ongoing discussion. This started over you dismissing the damage-dealing potential of a Half-Elf Hexadin over a number of erroneous assumptions:* First, you assumed it should be a sword & board wielder, when 1h PAM is an option.* Second, you entirely dismissed accuracy from your napkin math while trying to demonstrate that GWM+PAM use leads to such a high DPR disparity with a 1h+PAM that the latter isn't worth considering.* Third, when pressed, you added that GWM use proportionally benefits more from accuracy buffs (which is true), but within the same line of thought failed to address the existence of damage buffs, the existence of Elven Accuracy (which had already been previously brought to your attention), and lastly to support your argument you pulled accuracy values out of thin air. That's just bad form!So why don't we actually do a test case, with hard numbers?Level 13 Variant Human Paladin (Vengeance)18 10 14 8 10 16 (feats: Resilient, PAM, GWM, +2 STR ASI), using a Glaive +1, Defense Fighting StyleLevel 13 Half-Elf Paladin 12 / Warlock 1 (Vengeance / Hexblade)15 10 16 8 8 20 (feats: PAM, Elven Accuracy (+1 CHA), +2 CHA ASI), using a Quarterstaff +1, Dueling Fighting Style4 round combat. Both Haste and activate Vow of Enmity against a presumably tough enemy, leading to 10 weapon attacks and 3 butt-end attacks. 2nd level slots are spent in the case of a crit for additional 6d8 damage. Looped for AC 15 through 19, again representing a tough enemy. Human uses GWM on all his attacks of courseSo what are the results?Glaive Human: 264.85 average damageQStaff Half-Elf: 265.5 average damageThat looks pretty close to me! Here's the math involved, you can verify yourself: <a href="https://anydice.com/program/1331a" target="_blank">https://anydice.com/program/1331a</a>You can also fiddle with the numbers. As things stand, granting our two heroes here better magic weapons gives more of an edge to the Human, while conversely, increasing enemy AC favors the Hexadin. But that's just niggling, how about we do something more dramatic? As I recall you saying, combat doesn't happen in a 1v1 vacuum, so in the otherwise exact same scenario above let's have a friendly Cleric cast Holy Weapon.Glaive Human: 357.28 average damageQStaff Half-Elf: 396.91 average damageA wider gap! But it's a simple relationship: the stronger your individual attacks are, the more you benefit from increased accuracy - the same reason why GWM is good when you can pair it with Advantage or Superiority Dice. With Holy Weapon each strike is now delivering an extra 2d8 damage, almost double the base die+mod, making the -5/+10 trade of GWM comparatively less attractive.Alright but so, what happens if our heroes here are not going all out? They're only mopping up normal enemies and thus are saving their VoE, and no Holy Weapon, either. For simplicity I'll keep the same number of attacks and looped for the same ACs, but here's the result:Glaive Human: 165.8 average damageQStaff Half-Elf: 176.35 average damageAgain, comparable with an edge towards our Hexadin. Where you expecting different? Lower AC is better for the Glaive wielder, higher AC better for the Staff wielder.Now, I could go on and on because there's other things that can be taken into consideration when comparing the two set ups, like the Human still having the chance for another ability mod bump, or what happens if they both get belts, or the Hexadin through War Caster having reaction Booming Blade that synergizes with Relentless Avenger and later Soul of Vengeance, and the Warlock level granting access to excellent off-the-DMG weapons like the Staff of the Magi, but...Anyway, my point since the beginning was, the damage between the two is comparable, with superiority being situational. That's what I wanted to focus on and I believe I've sufficiently demonstrated. And just as easily as a Hexadin was used here as a demonstrator, it could've been a QS+Shield VHuman going pure Paladin - the involved ability mods would be the same, though with the loss of Elven Accuracy the Glaive wielder would have more of an edge.HTH</blockquote>

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