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<blockquote data-quote="Beholder Bob" data-source="post: 1392234" data-attributes="member: 12866">All systems suffer from a single problem, the weight the designer assigns for the given 'advantages'.&nbsp; Total agreement on a # value for darkvision, let alone the total 'fair' value each race can have will happen 1 week prior to world peace.&nbsp; In addition, you can not have true balance since the individual game decides which is better, and a race which excels in a specific class tends to be overpowered when used what it is made for, being sub-optimal elsewhere (if your race is not going to boost the class chosen, why not take a generic boost, such as human?).&nbsp; The 1/2 ogre in the savage species is obscene as a fighter, but not a great bard.&nbsp; The 1/2 orc tends to be a better fighter (+1 to hit &amp; dmg) if a melee fighter, though feats will vary this quite a bit.&nbsp; A race that suffers a minus to STR but gains a bonus to it's prime spellcasting stat will probably not suffer for it, making them a better 'wizard' then the human (again, not counting that feat).&nbsp; The only hope is to create races that do not dominate the player's choices, nor for a class (not all wizards are the X race, because any other choice is foolish).For what it's worth, here's mine: Races should come to 4.5 or less+1&nbsp; &nbsp; +1 physical or mental statistic-½&nbsp; &nbsp; -1 mental statistic (per game standard, even #'s are always used)-1&nbsp; &nbsp; -1 physical statistic (..I ignore this, but character generation) +/-1&nbsp; &nbsp; +/- 10’ move, Base MV: M &amp; L 30’, S 20’ (..methods I use prevents) +1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; extra racial class skills,&nbsp; each (..rampant abuse of this)+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; each +1 to a skill roll+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; low light vision+1&nbsp; &nbsp; dark vision 30’+3/2&nbsp; &nbsp; dark vision 60’+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; reduce vision or hearing penalty for range in ½+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; extra language known-1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; no race class (not done, but why not?)+1/4*&nbsp; &nbsp; 2 race classes (I do not think it's been done, but why not?)+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; Any race class (per humans)+3/2&nbsp; &nbsp; 4+HD SR+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; 4 SR +1 up to 10 (so SR 10+HD = +3)+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; 10 SR +1 up to 15 (so SR 15+HD = 5½)+1&nbsp; &nbsp; 10’ clumsy flight +1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; every +10’ or 1 step up in flight quality+1&nbsp; &nbsp; spell like ability, 1st level, 1/day&nbsp; OR &nbsp; &nbsp; know 2 0th level, use 2+(INT mod)/day+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; each additional use daily of spell ability above+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; natural attack, d4 or less+1*&nbsp; &nbsp; treat one size larger for grapple, trip, and bull-rush.+1&nbsp; &nbsp; scent+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; able to take one or more MM feats+1&nbsp; &nbsp; plant form, 1/day, only 1 form possible+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; each additional form available.+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; creature type provides immunity (giant, fey)+3/2&nbsp; &nbsp; as above but excellent immunity (undead)+3/4*&nbsp; &nbsp; +4 SP at 1st +1 SP each level &gt; 1st+2*&nbsp; &nbsp; extra feat at 1st, choice from list of 10+ feats+1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; +2 save Vs (poison &amp; disease) or (enchantments), (death effects), (compulsion)+1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; +2 save Vs (Language)+1/8&nbsp; &nbsp; Last extra day w/out food prior penalty+1/8&nbsp; &nbsp; Hold breath as if CON = CON+2+1&nbsp; &nbsp; use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if w all martial)+1*&nbsp; &nbsp; +1 HP at 1st LV, Minimum of 2 HP/LV+3/4&nbsp; &nbsp; Heal 50% more HP/day of rest+3/4&nbsp; &nbsp; +1 saves Vs (magic) or (non-magic)-1/4&nbsp; &nbsp; Run is x3 unless on all fours (free action to get on all fours, but move action to rise)-1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; Unable to run unless on all fours (as above)*May only be taken once1/8&nbsp; &nbsp; Very minor ability or weakness - add up, when done, round down to&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1/4 as smallest increment. Mostly not worth noting.Modifier for stat adjustment: modifiers for physical or mental (STR,DEX,CON or INT, WIS, CHA), including all bonus or minus, but not both at once, that equal or exceed 3 points, are further adjusted by 50% in the worst direction.&nbsp; Example below+1 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CONbonus 1+2 = 3, so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5penalty –2 = -2total is 3.5-2 = 1.5 cost+3 INT, -1 WIS, -2 CHAbonus 3 so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5penalty –1 –2 = -3, so –2 -1x 0.5 = -2.5Combine both modifiers onto same creaturetotal 3.5 – (2.5, cut in ½, phy vs mental)&nbsp; = 2.25 costWhy: high bonuses are hard to offset and allow abuse in a specialty class or ability focus.HUMANS +1.5 (feat) +0.75 (skill) +0.5 (fav class)DWARVES+1 (Stats) –0.5 (move) +1.5 (vision) +0.5 (stone cunning)+1 (ac vs giant) +0.5 (weapon familiar) +1 (stability)+1.5 (saves) +0 (spec foes) +0.75 (skills)(move penalty only ½ due to lack of penalty in armor)ELVES+0 (Stats) +0.25 (imm sleep) +0.5 (vision) +1.5 (skills) +1 (secret door) +1 (weap familiar)+ 0.5 (+2 saves)GNOMES+0 (Stats) +0 (small/move), +0.5 (vision)+0.5 (weap familiar) +0.5 (saves)+1 (illusion dc) +0 (vs spec foes) +1 (ac vs giant)+1 (skills) + 1 (spell like ability)HALF-ELVES+0.25 (imm sleep) + 0.5 (+2 vs enchant) + 0.5 (vision)+1.75 (skills) + 0 (elf blood) +0.5 (fav class)HALF-ORCS+0 (+2 str-2 int &amp; cha) +1.5 (vision) +0 (orc blood)HALFLINGS+0 (+2/-2 dex/str) +0 (size/speed) +2 (skills)+1 (save) + 0.5 (thrown/sling)HUMANS 2.75&nbsp; (flexibility and the worlds default standard makes up for it)DWARVES 7.25&nbsp; (and that is why everyone plays them at the cons)ELVES 4.75&nbsp; (default power standard)GNOMES 5.5&nbsp; (not a great warrior - but otherwise great for ANY class)HALF-ELVES 3.5&nbsp; (not bad, not great unless you want social skills)HALF-ORCS 1.5&nbsp; (poor sucker is screwed unless he's a fighter!)HALFLINGS 3.5&nbsp; (good, but not as good as gnomes)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Beholder Bob, post: 1392234, member: 12866"] All systems suffer from a single problem, the weight the designer assigns for the given 'advantages'. Total agreement on a # value for darkvision, let alone the total 'fair' value each race can have will happen 1 week prior to world peace. In addition, you can not have true balance since the individual game decides which is better, and a race which excels in a specific class tends to be overpowered when used what it is made for, being sub-optimal elsewhere (if your race is not going to boost the class chosen, why not take a generic boost, such as human?). The 1/2 ogre in the savage species is obscene as a fighter, but not a great bard. The 1/2 orc tends to be a better fighter (+1 to hit & dmg) if a melee fighter, though feats will vary this quite a bit. A race that suffers a minus to STR but gains a bonus to it's prime spellcasting stat will probably not suffer for it, making them a better 'wizard' then the human (again, not counting that feat). The only hope is to create races that do not dominate the player's choices, nor for a class (not all wizards are the X race, because any other choice is foolish). For what it's worth, here's mine: Races should come to 4.5 or less +1 +1 physical or mental statistic -½ -1 mental statistic [COLOR=DarkOrange](per game standard, even #'s are always used)[/COLOR] -1 -1 physical statistic [COLOR=DarkOrange](..I ignore this, but character generation) [/COLOR] +/-1 +/- 10’ move, Base MV: M & L 30’, S 20’ [COLOR=DarkOrange](..methods I use prevents) [/COLOR] +1/4 extra racial class skills, each [COLOR=DarkOrange](..rampant abuse of this)[/COLOR] +1/4 each +1 to a skill roll +1/2 low light vision +1 dark vision 30’ +3/2 dark vision 60’ +1/4 reduce vision or hearing penalty for range in ½ +1/4 extra language known -1/2 no race class [COLOR=DarkOrange](not done, but why not?)[/COLOR] +1/4* 2 race classes [COLOR=DarkOrange](I do not think it's been done, but why not?)[/COLOR] +1/2 Any race class (per humans) +3/2 4+HD SR +1/4 4 SR +1 up to 10 (so SR 10+HD = +3) +1/2 10 SR +1 up to 15 (so SR 15+HD = 5½) +1 10’ clumsy flight +1/2 every +10’ or 1 step up in flight quality +1 spell like ability, 1st level, 1/day OR know 2 0th level, use 2+(INT mod)/day +1/2 each additional use daily of spell ability above +1/4 natural attack, d4 or less +1* treat one size larger for grapple, trip, and bull-rush. +1 scent +1/4 able to take one or more MM feats +1 plant form, 1/day, only 1 form possible +1/4 each additional form available. +1/2 creature type provides immunity (giant, fey) +3/2 as above but excellent immunity (undead) +3/4* +4 SP at 1st +1 SP each level > 1st +2* extra feat at 1st, choice from list of 10+ feats +1/2 +2 save Vs (poison & disease) or (enchantments), (death effects), (compulsion) +1/4 +2 save Vs (Language) +1/8 Last extra day w/out food prior penalty +1/8 Hold breath as if CON = CON+2 +1 use of any 1 martial weapon (exotic if w all martial) +1* +1 HP at 1st LV, Minimum of 2 HP/LV +3/4 Heal 50% more HP/day of rest +3/4 +1 saves Vs (magic) or (non-magic) -1/4 Run is x3 unless on all fours (free action to get on all fours, but move action to rise) -1/2 Unable to run unless on all fours (as above) *May only be taken once 1/8 Very minor ability or weakness - add up, when done, round down to 1/4 as smallest increment. Mostly not worth noting. Modifier for stat adjustment: modifiers for physical or mental (STR,DEX,CON or INT, WIS, CHA), including all bonus or minus, but not both at once, that equal or exceed 3 points, are further adjusted by 50% in the worst direction. Example below +1 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON bonus 1+2 = 3, so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5 penalty –2 = -2 total is 3.5-2 = 1.5 cost +3 INT, -1 WIS, -2 CHA bonus 3 so 2+1x1.5 = 3.5 penalty –1 –2 = -3, so –2 -1x 0.5 = -2.5 Combine both modifiers onto same creature total 3.5 – (2.5, cut in ½, phy vs mental) = 2.25 cost Why: high bonuses are hard to offset and allow abuse in a specialty class or ability focus. HUMANS +1.5 (feat) +0.75 (skill) +0.5 (fav class) DWARVES +1 (Stats) –0.5 (move) +1.5 (vision) +0.5 (stone cunning) +1 (ac vs giant) +0.5 (weapon familiar) +1 (stability) +1.5 (saves) +0 (spec foes) +0.75 (skills) (move penalty only ½ due to lack of penalty in armor) ELVES +0 (Stats) +0.25 (imm sleep) +0.5 (vision) +1.5 (skills) +1 (secret door) +1 (weap familiar) + 0.5 (+2 saves) GNOMES +0 (Stats) +0 (small/move), +0.5 (vision) +0.5 (weap familiar) +0.5 (saves) +1 (illusion dc) +0 (vs spec foes) +1 (ac vs giant) +1 (skills) + 1 (spell like ability) HALF-ELVES +0.25 (imm sleep) + 0.5 (+2 vs enchant) + 0.5 (vision) +1.75 (skills) + 0 (elf blood) +0.5 (fav class) HALF-ORCS +0 (+2 str-2 int & cha) +1.5 (vision) +0 (orc blood) HALFLINGS +0 (+2/-2 dex/str) +0 (size/speed) +2 (skills) +1 (save) + 0.5 (thrown/sling) HUMANS 2.75 (flexibility and the worlds default standard makes up for it) DWARVES 7.25 (and that is why everyone plays them at the cons) ELVES 4.75 (default power standard) GNOMES 5.5 (not a great warrior - but otherwise great for ANY class) HALF-ELVES 3.5 (not bad, not great unless you want social skills) HALF-ORCS 1.5 (poor sucker is screwed unless he's a fighter!) HALFLINGS 3.5 (good, but not as good as gnomes) [/QUOTE]

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