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<blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 7718373" data-attributes="member: 6677017"><p>I suppose you're probably right on the timing. A lot of the discussion on game design that began in the 90s continued through the d20 3.0 era. I'm just reacting to walking into game stores (back when they still had reasonable RPG collections) and seeing almost nothing by d20 nonsense.</p><p></p><p>To give an example: The Wheel of Time d20. What the? I mean, seriously. It needs its own system. Or at least to use something somewhat suitable. Just grabbing d20 because it's there is a disservice to the fiction.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is true. Some game systems just suck. But the question is whether the designers of those systems were really only interested in getting a setting out and just couldn't make a good system, or whether they wanted to make a unique system and just had issues pulling it off.</p><p></p><p>But anecdotally, if something is d20 (and not D&D) it's a real hard sell for me to even look at it. I'm playing Mutants & Masterminds now because a friend is running it, but I wouldn't run it myself. I'm enjoying it because we're using it as one part of a system exploration game--we're doing three or more stories with the same characters using different systems to get experience with them and more directly be able to compare and contrast. Long term though, I'd do something else.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Some people like old computer games. I still think Ultima 7 was one of the best games ever made. That doesn't mean it doesn't have problems. In fact, it's problems are probably such that people who didn't grow up in an era where is was relatively new would find it too old to enjoy, just like I can't really play Ultima 4, as much as I'd like to.</p><p></p><p>Despite the interest in such games, they are obsolete technology. We know how to design better now. I'm not talking about Skyrim's first person play and better graphics. That's newer tech, but it doesn't obsolete older styles. I'm talking about things like knowing to make inventory management not be a hassle, better user interfaces, etc.</p><p></p><p>Older RPGs are built on obsolete tech. (I think every version of D&D includes a good helping of obsolete tech.) Class and level limited design is obsolete tech. You can provide all the benefits of it with none of the drawbacks by, say, including optional templates to enable emulation of classes and leveled advancement without having any of the limitations and hitches involved in it.</p><p></p><p>When d20 OGL came out, it basically re-entrenched design features that had been obsolete (classes and levels are only one element) for a decade as the norm. Everyone* else had moved on with their design before the OGL came out. It was a step backwards for RPG design.</p><p></p><p>*Hyperbole</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Half of those conventions are obsolete and need to be relegated to the nostalgia zone. Not that I'm saying that there shouldn't <em>be</em> a nostalgia zone! I'm always going to like D&D, but even my favorite 5e is an antique I enjoy like 8-bit Nintendo. The point is that the nostalgia zone can be recognized for what it is, and then not get in the way of future design improvements.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I could see that. Every now and again I try some newer but retro-designed video game like Treasure Adventure Game. </p><p></p><p>I think, and maybe this is where my issues are, that many people aren't aware they are playing obsolete tech. The glut of OGL materials has deprived them of the chance to see newer role-playing tech and creative designs. Sure, maybe they won't like any of it and will find 8-bit is all they want. But they ought to be given a chance to see that for themselves.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Makes sense. I'm not even saying that the OGL(s) were bad for the hobby overall. I am saying that there are drawbacks that we are still feeling the effects of.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's good to hear...unfortunately this is the first I've heard of it. I tuned out when saw a game was using d20, so they'd have had to put forth a bit more effort to let me know they were doing something different.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sword of Spirit, post: 7718373, member: 6677017"] I suppose you're probably right on the timing. A lot of the discussion on game design that began in the 90s continued through the d20 3.0 era. I'm just reacting to walking into game stores (back when they still had reasonable RPG collections) and seeing almost nothing by d20 nonsense. To give an example: The Wheel of Time d20. What the? I mean, seriously. It needs its own system. Or at least to use something somewhat suitable. Just grabbing d20 because it's there is a disservice to the fiction. This is true. Some game systems just suck. But the question is whether the designers of those systems were really only interested in getting a setting out and just couldn't make a good system, or whether they wanted to make a unique system and just had issues pulling it off. But anecdotally, if something is d20 (and not D&D) it's a real hard sell for me to even look at it. I'm playing Mutants & Masterminds now because a friend is running it, but I wouldn't run it myself. I'm enjoying it because we're using it as one part of a system exploration game--we're doing three or more stories with the same characters using different systems to get experience with them and more directly be able to compare and contrast. Long term though, I'd do something else. Some people like old computer games. I still think Ultima 7 was one of the best games ever made. That doesn't mean it doesn't have problems. In fact, it's problems are probably such that people who didn't grow up in an era where is was relatively new would find it too old to enjoy, just like I can't really play Ultima 4, as much as I'd like to. Despite the interest in such games, they are obsolete technology. We know how to design better now. I'm not talking about Skyrim's first person play and better graphics. That's newer tech, but it doesn't obsolete older styles. I'm talking about things like knowing to make inventory management not be a hassle, better user interfaces, etc. Older RPGs are built on obsolete tech. (I think every version of D&D includes a good helping of obsolete tech.) Class and level limited design is obsolete tech. You can provide all the benefits of it with none of the drawbacks by, say, including optional templates to enable emulation of classes and leveled advancement without having any of the limitations and hitches involved in it. When d20 OGL came out, it basically re-entrenched design features that had been obsolete (classes and levels are only one element) for a decade as the norm. Everyone* else had moved on with their design before the OGL came out. It was a step backwards for RPG design. *Hyperbole Half of those conventions are obsolete and need to be relegated to the nostalgia zone. Not that I'm saying that there shouldn't [I]be[/I] a nostalgia zone! I'm always going to like D&D, but even my favorite 5e is an antique I enjoy like 8-bit Nintendo. The point is that the nostalgia zone can be recognized for what it is, and then not get in the way of future design improvements. I could see that. Every now and again I try some newer but retro-designed video game like Treasure Adventure Game. I think, and maybe this is where my issues are, that many people aren't aware they are playing obsolete tech. The glut of OGL materials has deprived them of the chance to see newer role-playing tech and creative designs. Sure, maybe they won't like any of it and will find 8-bit is all they want. But they ought to be given a chance to see that for themselves. Makes sense. I'm not even saying that the OGL(s) were bad for the hobby overall. I am saying that there are drawbacks that we are still feeling the effects of. That's good to hear...unfortunately this is the first I've heard of it. I tuned out when saw a game was using d20, so they'd have had to put forth a bit more effort to let me know they were doing something different. [/QUOTE]
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