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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Pendragon" data-source="post: 1720008" data-attributes="member: 707">This makes sense.  Just the fast healing alone is...impressive.I have taken a close look at the Half-Celestial's potential.  Let me address some of your points.  Keep in mind that my responses are with regards to my specific paladin.  Other paladins in other campaigns with other attributes may synergize differently with the template.It also means waiting an extra 4 levels for each new iterative attack.  Also, Power Attacking for 2 is very often disadvantageous.  Especially if you are less likely to hit which, with -4 BAB, you are.  So overall, this aspect of the template, stacked against a straight paladin, seems detrimental to me.  For the record, my pally is sword-and-board.I have a 16 con now, so losing 4 HD means losing 4d10+12 hp, average 33 hp.  And that is assuming my paladin doesn't get a con-boosting item (which he will).  When he does, the loss of hp is actually worse, since the con-boosting item is less-effective, having fewer HD to effect.  Since the con gives a bonus of +2 hp per HD, I'll have to be 20th-level ECL before I break even on this.  So a negative for pretty much the PC's entire career.My PC has, indeed, already hit max dex on armor.  He's hardly ever touched his short bow, and the +1 to init gives him a grand total of +2.  This is an infinitesimal bonus, IMO.Not only will I be behind in max-ranks, but the campaign in question is a combat-heavy dungeon crawl.  So what usefulness +1 skill points per level might have for a paladin is even less so.So again, at +4 LA, the paladin's spellcasting (for what it's worth) is worse.   The Will Save bonus is really the only useful aspect of the Wis bonus, but with Divine Grace my paladin already has a very good will save.  Still, this is a definite advantage.  I'd say functionally close to a free Iron Will feat.The charisma is definitely one of the best perks of the class for a paladin.  However, note that the Half-Celestial paladin's Lay on Hands only "catches up to" but does not surpass the straight paladin's.  With Divine Grace and Divine Might (which my paladin has), any ability that grants a bonus to charisma is good, no doubt.Holy Smite is decidedly worse than the paladin's Smite Evil ability, for exactly the reason you mention: no cha bonus to hit.  So the Half-Celestial loses ground again.These are all very nice abilities.  The Spell Resistance in particular.  Although it's not incredibly good for paladins in particular, since Divine Grace already gives paladins a fantastic defense against magic (my saves are very nice), SR is never something to make light of.Even with a +2 LA, I'll never see Ressurrection unless the game goes into epic levels, which I doubt.  And while the later spell-like abilities are very useful, at 1/day I don't think they're overpowering.  Still, this is the meat of the class, the reason it's worth any LA, whether it be +2 or +4, and I'm not denying that I like the idea of throwing around Dispel Evil or Holy Aura.As always, FireLance, your opinion is insightful and well-written.  In this case, though, I respectfully disagree.In nearly every area you mentioned, the Half-Celestial paladin is actually worse-off than the straight paladin.  Melee to hit and damage: worse. Hit points: worse.  Spellcasting: worse.  Smiting: worse.  Lay on Hands: equal.  Saves: equal.  On the plus side, the Half-Celestial gains 3 energy resistances, SR, some bonus stats (most of which are subsumed in the loss of class levels), and some spell-like abilities.Again, perhaps in some campaigns a +4 LA is a good deal.  But for me, I don't think so.  At +2 LA, though, it's looking good.  I may definitely have to talk to my DM about the possibility of taking it at around 10th-level or so.</blockquote>

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