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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shard O'Glase" data-source="post: 780193" data-attributes="member: 1134">When you end up with 5 subraces so every min/max concept is more than handled then elves and other sub race monkey races do stand out.And also while Humans are great, Elves are easily just as good even without the subrace hoo-haw.  +2 dex-2 con a wash IMO, for front line types a hit, for rear guards a +.  Low light, nice but not darkvision.  Martial weapon proficiencies, great for non fighter classes, wasted for fighters.(mage beneifts are short lived unless you really focus on it with buffs and the like)  +2 to spot/listen/search is a big benie especialy at low levels when you are not facing high level rogues. Instant detect secret doors if within 5', not massively powerful but a huge out of game benefit, and a decent in game benefit. +2 save vs enchanments is close to having iron will a near must have feat for the weak will save classes.  Immune to sleep is nice, can be a life saver but then again you might not ever bump into it in the few sessions it takes to level past it.4 hours meditation if a mage not that big of a deal, for every other class its a huge benefit for the small party.Munchkin no, but if these abilities fit anywhere near along the line you were shooting for a much better choice than human.  Which is how it should be, the human should be able to fit any niche fairly well,but if a races specific abilities fit what your shooting for that race should be the better choice.Elves IMO make fantastic rogues, bards and clerics.  They make above average but within the reach of in skill mages, sorcerers, and druids.  They make above average but agin in the reach of in skill of bow specialized fighters.  they make below average front line types.  People can design things aorund this to amke a crappy elf cleric or a great elf frontline fighter with all the feats and attribute placements options.Add in sub races and they aren't weak in any area and in fact make fantastic everything.</blockquote>

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