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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Eldorian" data-source="post: 763129" data-attributes="member: 10504">11?  You're mad.  A full blown treant is ECL 12, and is huge, has 10 higher str, 6 higher con, higer int, cha, damage, reach, nat armor, animates trees, more trample damage.. ect ect.A minotaur is ecl 8, has 6 hd, +6 bab, 2 good save tracks, scent, bonus charge damage.. my treeman has only 4 HD.That whole starting ecl = HD plus ECL is bogus, depending on the type of HD.  Plant HD are the equivalent of humaoid basically, which is worse than any pc class, whereas Outsider and dragon HD are compareable to PC levels, and the Mounsterous Humanoid and Magical beast HD are almost worth pc levels, cause they have 2 good save tracks and fighter BAB.  The ECL on my treeman was done by comparing a minotaur to a treant, as they are written in savage species.  Unless they have both horribly wrong, there is NO WAY my treeman is ecl 11.As for the trusting of 3rd party stuff over homebrew...  You think they playtest that?  sure they may run it threw a game or two, but that's hardly playtesting.  I have yet to see a 3rd party book I'll allow, without changes, into my game.  And because I made it up does make it better than something else.  I went through the time and effort of writing it up, so it has more value to me than something in some one else's book.  A book, I might add, I do not own, nor does my DM, and do not plan on owning.  Now, 3rd party material has the potential to be good stuff, but, from what i've seen, the rules bits in them are done sort of sloppy.  There are good 3rd party adventures out there tho.</blockquote>

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