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Halfling rogue sniping from the the second rank
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<blockquote data-quote="Sir Brennen" data-source="post: 6350959" data-attributes="member: 553"><p>I disagree that the discussion is about the mechanic being overpowered, though I think that, lacking any other mechanical/rules reason, that's what some people are falling back on, or others are assuming is the basis of their argument.</p><p></p><p>I personally think it's just a bit of cognitive dissonance for some people to entertain the idea of a halfling popping out (or even shooting around your fighter buddy with cover, which to me still means they have to lean around a bit) then going right back to hiding behind something the size of a human leg. </p><p></p><p>Even leaving the wording of Naturally Stealthy behind, the same argument could be applied to any rouge popping in and out from behind the same tree or boulder they were originally hidden behind. I'm in the "that bugs me" camp. </p><p></p><p>To explain why, let me add another term to our ongoing splitting hairs over-analysis of the rules text: location. </p><p></p><p>A couple of lines from the Basic rules:</p><p></p><p>"If you are hidden both unseen and unheard when you make an attack, you give away your <strong>location</strong> when the attack hits or misses."</p><p></p><p>"One of the <strong>main factors</strong> in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area," </p><p></p><p>As quoted above, seeing a creature is the <em>main</em> factor, but not necessarily the <em>only</em> one, as the sneeze test shows. This to me lends weight to those arguing that knowledge of your current whereabouts trumps direct visual contact.</p><p></p><p>If you're hiding behind a low wall and sneeze, by the rules, you're location is given away, <strong>even though you haven't been seen</strong>. Could you simply make another "hide" check but remain in the exact same location? No, in my opinion, you can't. As others have argued, the creature now knows where you are, even though it can't see you. If you want to hide again, you'll need to use Stealth to move to a <em>new</em> location, one where he doesn't expect you to be. </p><p></p><p>This applies to your fighter buddy... that's the same location. It's pretty much trying to hide under direct observation. It's no different than Bob the Rogue running across an open field in plain sight of the enemy, stopping at the only tree in the field and trying to hide behind it. Not going to happen. There's only one location where Bob could be, so it's known. It's "revealed". (Unless Bob also makes a Climb check, in which case I fully expect him to shout "Death from above!" when he attacks.)</p><p></p><p>If Bob is running across the same field full of tall grass, and drops down out of sight while making a Stealth roll, that's totally fine. The enemy no longer knows exactly where he might be in the tall grass, as he can move while not visible. If he pops up and attacks, he's going to have to duck back down out of sight in the grass and move somewhere else if he wants to hide again.</p><p></p><p>So, the three rules of Stealth? Location, location, location.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sir Brennen, post: 6350959, member: 553"] I disagree that the discussion is about the mechanic being overpowered, though I think that, lacking any other mechanical/rules reason, that's what some people are falling back on, or others are assuming is the basis of their argument. I personally think it's just a bit of cognitive dissonance for some people to entertain the idea of a halfling popping out (or even shooting around your fighter buddy with cover, which to me still means they have to lean around a bit) then going right back to hiding behind something the size of a human leg. Even leaving the wording of Naturally Stealthy behind, the same argument could be applied to any rouge popping in and out from behind the same tree or boulder they were originally hidden behind. I'm in the "that bugs me" camp. To explain why, let me add another term to our ongoing splitting hairs over-analysis of the rules text: location. A couple of lines from the Basic rules: "If you are hidden both unseen and unheard when you make an attack, you give away your [b]location[/b] when the attack hits or misses." "One of the [b]main factors[/b] in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area," As quoted above, seeing a creature is the [i]main[/i] factor, but not necessarily the [i]only[/i] one, as the sneeze test shows. This to me lends weight to those arguing that knowledge of your current whereabouts trumps direct visual contact. If you're hiding behind a low wall and sneeze, by the rules, you're location is given away, [b]even though you haven't been seen[/b]. Could you simply make another "hide" check but remain in the exact same location? No, in my opinion, you can't. As others have argued, the creature now knows where you are, even though it can't see you. If you want to hide again, you'll need to use Stealth to move to a [i]new[/i] location, one where he doesn't expect you to be. This applies to your fighter buddy... that's the same location. It's pretty much trying to hide under direct observation. It's no different than Bob the Rogue running across an open field in plain sight of the enemy, stopping at the only tree in the field and trying to hide behind it. Not going to happen. There's only one location where Bob could be, so it's known. It's "revealed". (Unless Bob also makes a Climb check, in which case I fully expect him to shout "Death from above!" when he attacks.) If Bob is running across the same field full of tall grass, and drops down out of sight while making a Stealth roll, that's totally fine. The enemy no longer knows exactly where he might be in the tall grass, as he can move while not visible. If he pops up and attacks, he's going to have to duck back down out of sight in the grass and move somewhere else if he wants to hide again. So, the three rules of Stealth? Location, location, location. [/QUOTE]
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