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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 4935185" data-attributes="member: 82106">I think the only problem I have with this build being considered OP is that it just isn't. Yes, its powerful, but IMHO it is well within the expected power level for PCs at the levels we're talking about here. I could list 20 other builds, probably at least one and often 4 or 5 for any given class that can achieve similar power levels. You almost have to TRY to NOT have this kind of synergy at paragon tier.I mean just consider a couple of options players have:Wizard's can super buff Magic Missle to almost absurd levels of power. A Master's Wand of MM combined with the feat that buffs force damage, throw in MC to ranger to get the Spitting Cobra thing going, etc. Trust me, it can be highly lethal! There are also a ridiculous number of Daggermaster based builds which can crit on 18-20 and do all sorts of crazy stuff. Ranger MC rogue PP Daggermaster and toss around two daggers a round with preposterous effectiveness.Lets not forget a whole number of barbarian based supercharger builds, nor the polearm based "you are stuck to me forever with no hope of escaping" builds, etc. And what about the various Blood Mage builds? Those can be combined in various ways with dagger based sorcerer for all sorts of fun. It just goes on and on.Most of these builds at their core rely on a good synergy between at-wills, items, paragon path, etc. Its simply the expected effectiveness level of decently built 4e characters once they hit paragon tier. If this Invoker build falls under the category of unacceptable cheese, then you're going to have to throw away essentially all of the good builds at higher levels. How much fun is that? 4e was designed to be able to cope with this level of optimization with no real problems. Worst case the DM has to throw some harder encounters at the players, but in ANY given party unless the players are utterly ignorant of how to build a decent character they're going to be using good builds. Heck there are enough good builds out there that even total 4e noobs are likely to hit on some of them pretty quick. 4e charop is just not really rocket science, most of the good stuff is pretty obvious when you look at it and even players with nothing but PHB 1 have a lot of good options.Basically I think people should reassess what they think is OP because in the context of this discussion the bar for that has been lowered to a pretty low level IMHO.</blockquote>

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