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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 4935343" data-attributes="member: 82106">Yeah, and as often happens, we just disagree. I have some players playing in a game now that are almost 7th level. None of them has played 4e before, though 2 of them are long time D&Ders and play/dm a 3.x game. Another one is a pretty smart guy and he's played other RPGs before. Still, they are far short of being 4e charop experts.Yet they started out at 1st level and built fairly decent characters right off. One built a very nice STR cleric (and I know she hasn't even read the PHB, probably just skimmed the cleric section). The character is certainly not broken by any means (and its hard to be seriously broken at 6th level anyway) but she's figured out what works and 4e is simple enough in general that she's reasonably optimized. The other characters are a BIT less optimized, but again the players have obviously grasped what the good choices are, they're just choosing options based on whatever they started with (starlock, dwarf 2h ftr, brutal scoundrel, eladrin orb wizard) but the options they choose are pretty good. Any one of them could easily have come up with this invoker build and I fully expect they'll either figure out ways to optimize the characters they have now or their next round of characters will be a LOT stronger at the very least.4e is just not rocket science. Sure, there are numerous tricky builds that will only show up in the hands of someone who has thoroughly gone through the books and knows the game system well, but it doesn't take a genius to see that daggermaster plus X,Y, and Z makes a really nasty combination. I'm sure we all know people who will NEVER optimize their characters even slightly and won't likely hit on great builds on their own, but they'll still probably figure out some decent synergies and that's really all good 4e builds are. I guess my fundamental problem is, if you outlaw this invoker build, then what next? You're PUNISHING the players for playing well. Its unnecessary. The game expects players to make strong characters. Its part of the fun. If you nerf every single item and power that makes any appreciable synergy possible you'll just end up with a bunch of frustrated players with really mediocre characters that aren't that fun in combat. I guess that might be fine for some people's games, but I don't see where it makes things better.</blockquote>

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