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D&D Older Editions
Handling things like Riding and Craft with 4E Skills.
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<blockquote data-quote="Euberon" data-source="post: 5612852" data-attributes="member: 91899"><p>[In order for a crafting skill to be valuable in a gaming system, it needs to have a means to -exceed- the limits imposed by mundane equipment.] Hmmmm. I might suggest this is not THE reason crafting and skills are important in a gaming system. </p><p></p><p>IMHO, in order for a craft of skill to be valuable in a gaming system, it needs to illustrate actions that the character uses in their world to make a difference, just as powers do. Exceeding the limits of stuff you can buy, or making that stuff cheaper, is not what skill, craft, or perform was for in our games. We used them as character moments and part of the fabric of the game, just as you would any power (of which there are a multitude, so I can't really buy the simplicity argument here either, unfortunately). </p><p></p><p>Role playing skills and crafts is, as I said, making do, but it lacks the in game wow factor (not WoW, but wow!) that the rest of the game captures, ie, "Cool, I rolled a 20! on my bardic performance!" Role playing also does not impose limits to flex against, as does the rest of the game. I'm as good as I wanna be isn't really the spirit of any version of D&D. </p><p></p><p>I'm not suggesting cannibalization of the skill system, but rather building a non combat partner to it (ala Unearthed Arcana optional rules style) to give the skill and craft people back a part of D&D that WAS an important part of the game to them. And Wizards could make another book out of it. A requirement for most anything they do, it seems. Everyone kind of wins. </p><p></p><p>Hey, I fully understand that some people want to play "character-less" D&D Miniatures and some people want to play diceless story telling Amber and everything in between and under the dark sun. It's alllll good, but in moving a "particular" system forward, the elements of that system should be addressed and refined, not discarded IF a large portion of the demographic used them. I can dig most of 4E but the reason of skill and craft exclusions as 'it was irrelevant' doesn't hold true when they actually were relevant to a large majority of the players.</p><p></p><p>I, like many people, liked skills and their absence is creating this and a multitude of more threads. There omission is the reason for this dialogue and us "pro-skill/craft" people just aren't buying the cobbled power gamer logic of they weren't powerful enough to include. Fine, they weren't included. Admit there is a large call for them, stop this apologist rhetoric and make a supplement, Wizards. You are really, really good at supplements. It'll be a hit, i promise.<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p>Or think about it this way: Is there any stronger evidence that they are missed than the loads of conversations people are having about them?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Euberon, post: 5612852, member: 91899"] [In order for a crafting skill to be valuable in a gaming system, it needs to have a means to -exceed- the limits imposed by mundane equipment.] Hmmmm. I might suggest this is not THE reason crafting and skills are important in a gaming system. IMHO, in order for a craft of skill to be valuable in a gaming system, it needs to illustrate actions that the character uses in their world to make a difference, just as powers do. Exceeding the limits of stuff you can buy, or making that stuff cheaper, is not what skill, craft, or perform was for in our games. We used them as character moments and part of the fabric of the game, just as you would any power (of which there are a multitude, so I can't really buy the simplicity argument here either, unfortunately). Role playing skills and crafts is, as I said, making do, but it lacks the in game wow factor (not WoW, but wow!) that the rest of the game captures, ie, "Cool, I rolled a 20! on my bardic performance!" Role playing also does not impose limits to flex against, as does the rest of the game. I'm as good as I wanna be isn't really the spirit of any version of D&D. I'm not suggesting cannibalization of the skill system, but rather building a non combat partner to it (ala Unearthed Arcana optional rules style) to give the skill and craft people back a part of D&D that WAS an important part of the game to them. And Wizards could make another book out of it. A requirement for most anything they do, it seems. Everyone kind of wins. Hey, I fully understand that some people want to play "character-less" D&D Miniatures and some people want to play diceless story telling Amber and everything in between and under the dark sun. It's alllll good, but in moving a "particular" system forward, the elements of that system should be addressed and refined, not discarded IF a large portion of the demographic used them. I can dig most of 4E but the reason of skill and craft exclusions as 'it was irrelevant' doesn't hold true when they actually were relevant to a large majority of the players. I, like many people, liked skills and their absence is creating this and a multitude of more threads. There omission is the reason for this dialogue and us "pro-skill/craft" people just aren't buying the cobbled power gamer logic of they weren't powerful enough to include. Fine, they weren't included. Admit there is a large call for them, stop this apologist rhetoric and make a supplement, Wizards. You are really, really good at supplements. It'll be a hit, i promise.:D Or think about it this way: Is there any stronger evidence that they are missed than the loads of conversations people are having about them? [/QUOTE]
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