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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 6865915" data-attributes="member: 177">Actually, if there is widespread harassment, and the perpetrators are overwhelmingly white and male, then perhaps they have a point.&nbsp; You know about &quot;the tone argument&quot; yes?&nbsp; It is a logical fallacy - that an argument can be dismissed based on its presentation, rather than its content.&nbsp; That it is stated in a bombastic or hyperbolic manner does not change the actual facts of the situation, which are also presented in the piece.&nbsp; What you are saying amounts to, &quot;I'm sorry that you were given death threats many times over the years by men, but until such time as you can phrase your argument in such a way as I am not personally put out by it, I'm going to dismiss you for misstating your argument.&quot;Dismissing them for hyperbole does nothing to resolve the real issues that are present.&nbsp; If you look past the overstatement, and address the real issues, then the need to overstate the case will disappear.&nbsp; Prove to them that you're listening, and they won't have to scream to be heard.&nbsp; Stick your fingers in your ears and sing, &quot;LALALA!&nbsp; I'm not listening!&quot; will tend to make them yell louder.&nbsp; You are, in essence, exerting your power over them, by insisting that you will not pay attention until *your* sensibilities are not met.&nbsp; Yes, it is.&nbsp; However, if you are a member of a group that doesn't have to take all that much crap, then maybe it makes more sense to take some crap and get to the point, rather than get into a crap-shoveling contest. Chicken meet egg.&nbsp; How do you make it so that it gets addressed on the individual level, unless you raise the issue more broadly? This is another answer to the &quot;not all men&quot; argument:&nbsp; Maybe not all men, but yes *all women*.&nbsp; This is not obvious to men, unless women tell them.&nbsp; Men must be told en masse.&nbsp; That's what this piece is about - another effort to inform the broad audience that the problem still exists, and men should step up to help fix it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 6865915, member: 177"] Actually, if there is widespread harassment, and the perpetrators are overwhelmingly white and male, then perhaps they have a point. You know about "the tone argument" yes? It is a logical fallacy - that an argument can be dismissed based on its presentation, rather than its content. That it is stated in a bombastic or hyperbolic manner does not change the actual facts of the situation, which are also presented in the piece. What you are saying amounts to, "I'm sorry that you were [i]given death threats many times over the years by men[/i], but until such time as you can phrase your argument in such a way as I am not personally put out by it, I'm going to dismiss you for misstating your argument." Dismissing them for hyperbole does nothing to resolve the real issues that are present. If you look past the overstatement, and address the real issues, then the need to overstate the case will disappear. Prove to them that you're listening, and they won't have to scream to be heard. Stick your fingers in your ears and sing, "LALALA! I'm not listening!" will tend to make them yell louder. You are, in essence, exerting your power over them, by insisting that you will not pay attention until *your* sensibilities are not met. Yes, it is. However, if you are a member of a group that doesn't have to take all that much crap, then maybe it makes more sense to take some crap and get to the point, rather than get into a crap-shoveling contest. Chicken meet egg. How do you make it so that it gets addressed on the individual level, unless you raise the issue more broadly? This is another answer to the "not all men" argument: Maybe not all men, but yes *all women*. This is not obvious to men, unless women tell them. Men must be told [i]en masse[/i]. That's what this piece is about - another effort to inform the broad audience that the problem still exists, and men should step up to help fix it. [/QUOTE]

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