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<blockquote data-quote="strongbow" data-source="post: 1433618" data-attributes="member: 2650">We have heard from both sides and parsed, pushed, pulled, and hashed the language.&nbsp; We have asked game designers, customer service, invoked tradition, and many other things, all of which are good to the discussion.Recall that clerics get a 5th level touch spell that kills you on a failed save, (Slay Living), and a 7th level spell that kills you at range, not a touch attack and deals 10d6 (Destruction).Hmm. So what do arcane casters have that is single target and has some stopping power?&nbsp; Finger of DeathSo let's compare:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Failed Save&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Passed SaveSlay Living&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Death&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3d6 + clvlHarm&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Death/10 Clvl max 150&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 1/2, no deathDestruction&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Death&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10d6Finger of Death&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Death&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3d6 + clvlIn looking at these spells in context of version 3.5, it is difficult to draw any conclusions because of the ranged component and differences in spell level.&nbsp; Slay Living and Harm are touch spells, so the increased element of danger is a factor in their use and I would offer the decisive factor in their construction.Harm caps at 15th caster level so let us take a 15th level caster &quot;Bob&quot; and see what options Bob has.&nbsp; At 15th level he can cast Reached Slay Living to get an almost carbon copy of Finger of Death, or he could cast Destruction and get better damage on a failed save.&nbsp; Hmmm.&nbsp; Bob could cast Reached Harm to get the protection of range and deal a good deal of damage.&nbsp; If Bob were an arcane caster, he could cast an Empowered Disintegrate, dealing 30d6 +50%=an average of 157.5 on a failed save and average 26 on a passed save, which is ok but not the 75 on a failed save that harm deals.&nbsp; As much as I hate to admit it, because of the much better damage that harm deals on a failed save it probably should not kill&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown&nbsp; &nbsp; :("&nbsp; data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> . I play a lot of clerics and like my death magic, but in looking at the spell changes as a whole the 3.5 designers made spells far less lethal (Hold Spells give saves every round, sleep was nerfed, Disintegrate does a paltry 2d6 per caster level.&nbsp; That's average 77 pts at 11th level and only 140 average at 20th level.)&nbsp; I'm giving my opinion in the rules forum I know, but it is helpful to remind people of what other death spells are like in 3.5.Edit: I spaced out the spell failed/passed save but it posted all run together, sorry.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="strongbow, post: 1433618, member: 2650"] We have heard from both sides and parsed, pushed, pulled, and hashed the language. We have asked game designers, customer service, invoked tradition, and many other things, all of which are good to the discussion. Recall that clerics get a 5th level touch spell that kills you on a failed save, (Slay Living), and a 7th level spell that kills you at [B]range[/B], not a touch attack and deals 10d6 (Destruction). Hmm. So what do arcane casters have that is single target and has some stopping power? Finger of Death So let's compare: Failed Save Passed Save Slay Living Death 3d6 + clvl Harm Death/10 Clvl max 150 1/2, no death Destruction Death 10d6 Finger of Death Death 3d6 + clvl In looking at these spells in context of version 3.5, it is difficult to draw any conclusions because of the ranged component and differences in spell level. Slay Living and Harm are touch spells, so the increased element of danger is a factor in their use and I would offer the decisive factor in their construction. Harm caps at 15th caster level so let us take a 15th level caster "Bob" and see what options Bob has. At 15th level he can cast Reached Slay Living to get an almost carbon copy of Finger of Death, or he could cast Destruction and get better damage on a failed save. Hmmm. Bob could cast Reached Harm to get the protection of range and deal a good deal of damage. If Bob were an arcane caster, he could cast an Empowered Disintegrate, dealing 30d6 +50%=an average of 157.5 on a failed save and average 26 on a passed save, which is ok but not the 75 on a failed save that harm deals. As much as I hate to admit it, because of the much better damage that harm deals on a failed save it probably should not kill :( . I play a lot of clerics and like my death magic, but in looking at the spell changes as a whole the 3.5 designers made spells far less lethal (Hold Spells give saves every round, sleep was nerfed, Disintegrate does a paltry 2d6 per caster level. That's average 77 pts at 11th level and only 140 average at 20th level.) I'm giving my opinion in the rules forum I know, but it is helpful to remind people of what other death spells are like in 3.5. Edit: I spaced out the spell failed/passed save but it posted all run together, sorry. [/QUOTE]

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