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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Serge" data-source="post: 326573" data-attributes="member: 4049">Well the "fact" that most people seem to think that the spell is too deadly compared to other spells of its level is irrelevant to me.  There are a lot of things a mass group will think that is patently untrue, but I don't want to get into a collective behavior argument here.As for it being imbalanced compared to other divine 6th level spells.  Well, heal by itself balances it out completely if not going overboard.  A person benefitting from that spell not only gains all of their hps back (they don't gain all but 1d4), they are also cured of all diseases and mental conditions, even those caused by a symbol spell... which is an 8th level spell.Planar Ally could allow a good cleric to call on a Planetar for aid, effectively doubling the clerics spells (and then some!) and even granting the possibility of another harm spell!  An 11th level cleric can banish up to 22 HD of creatures instantly.  Heck, that means that there's a good chance that a CR 16 Pit Fiend or a CR 18 Balor are effectively sent away by a mortal five or seven "levels" lower...  And you think harm is overpowered compared to other spells of the same level?Well, I think I kind of touched on this issue in the previous response to Caliber, but I'll elaborate.So the Dragon got caught off guard (and he did.  His approach was part of a ploy to distract the PCs.  He did not expect them to attack him, but to to flee or to watch him carefully while something else happened.  This worked, but not as he had hoped to his chagrin and pain).  It's his fault.  He should have been more prepared.  Perhaps he should have had shield cast.  Perhaps he should have researched the means to reduce the potential of being harmed.  Perhaps he should have done more research on the PCs.  When it comes down to it, the Dragon did not know exactly what he was facing and suffered the consequences.  If he had died... so what?  Now, from a mechanics perspective, he was equal to the Party Level (20), so it was perfectly fine for the PCs to have taken him out... especially after he almost killed two characters and sent a Planetar packing back to Elysium before the harm took effect.  And let me also state that I'm not trying to beat my PCs.  I'm challenging them (and believe me, I do so very well).  I try not to use my knowledge of how they play to affect how my NPCs respond.  If Ridgeback had done his homework, he would have known what to expect.  Since he survived that encounter, he will take pains to reduce it as a potential threat in the future.Simply put, I don't see harm as being overpowered or out of line with other 6th level spells.  It works fine the way it is and does not require any tweaks.  Most adjustments of this nature do not allow real creative use of the established rules and, in some cases (and I'm not accusing those here of this since I don't know you), changes of this sort are made because the DM feels that things become too easy for the players and harder on the DMs.  But, if you feel so strongly in your games otherwise, do what you think is necessary.</blockquote>

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