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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 267003" data-attributes="member: 2205">Well, I don't mean that Harn is extreme in the sense that Harn players are wild-eyed fanatics.  Simply that there's nothing that's "like Harn, but even more."  The aspects that Harn fans like about Harn seem to have reached their apogee in Harn: no other game system tries to portray such a realistic fantasy world that so closely reflects true medieval life.  Certainly other systems and settings have fans that are just as dedicated.  But by extreme, I refer to the position that Harn places itself on the spectrum of role-playing settings: it's really off on it's own, and even those that use similar elements don't go as far as Harn does.Actually, I think that just because one doesn't want to use a setting like Harn doesn't mean that one wants to play heroic gaming or common fantasy.  One valid criticism of Harn is that it actually isn't realistic in that it assumes a fantasy world with lots of different inputs, yet the output is too similar to our own medieval world.  Where's the changes that come about due to the actual presence of magic, and orcs, and the like?  There aren't any.  That, to me, is why I wouldn't want a hyper-realistic medieval game setting, because the hyper-realism is an illusion of sorts.  It fails to take into account aspects of the setting that apparently have no effect on the setting...I agree 100%.  The setting(s) of D&D aren't what make the PCs heroes, what they do is what makes them heroes.  Every setting of every kind has heroes, villains, and Joe Blows.  If the PCs are to be heroes, villains, or Joe Blows, that depends on things that are entirely divorced from what type of setting it is, IMO.True, the rules don't make the setting.  But the rules can certainly facilitate the setting.  I'd like a d20 ruleset that took some ideas from low fantasy, gritty systems like Harnmaster and incorporated them as appropriate to get a low fantasy, gritty feel to it as well.  And I really don't like the magic system of D&D...</blockquote>

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