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<blockquote data-quote="aco175" data-source="post: 8529970" data-attributes="member: 27385">I was not thinking of a number when I said players should have a competent PC.&nbsp; A 16 is something you should have by level 4 if you are not trying.&nbsp; You may want to try something and not start with a 16 in you ability your class needs, fine.&nbsp; A playing group tends to be only 4-5 players today, so having a player not be part of the group and have their role at least somewhat competently players lessens the party.&nbsp; That brings up party/player dynamics.&nbsp; A player at the table is there to play the game, same as everyone else.&nbsp; The PCs in a game would not want that PC in their group if it was an actual group facing danger.&nbsp; Like when you hire someone for your business or when I was in the Army, you screen the people first to see if they fit your needs- an adventuring party would do that.&nbsp; It is bad form at the gaming table to tell a player that his PC does not work for the group and the PCs are kicking him out and you need to role another.&nbsp; People just expect the rest of the group to have a dud since the other player can make anything he wants.&nbsp; If that definition of competent means a 16, then fine.&nbsp; if that is optimized to some degree to some players, I cannot help that.&nbsp; Some people, some degree leaves a lot to haggle about.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="aco175, post: 8529970, member: 27385"] I was not thinking of a number when I said players should have a competent PC. A 16 is something you should have by level 4 if you are not trying. You may want to try something and not start with a 16 in you ability your class needs, fine. A playing group tends to be only 4-5 players today, so having a player not be part of the group and have their role at least somewhat competently players lessens the party. That brings up party/player dynamics. A player at the table is there to play the game, same as everyone else. The PCs in a game would not want that PC in their group if it was an actual group facing danger. Like when you hire someone for your business or when I was in the Army, you screen the people first to see if they fit your needs- an adventuring party would do that. It is bad form at the gaming table to tell a player that his PC does not work for the group and the PCs are kicking him out and you need to role another. People just expect the rest of the group to have a dud since the other player can make anything he wants. If that definition of competent means a 16, then fine. if that is optimized to some degree to some players, I cannot help that. Some people, some degree leaves a lot to haggle about. [/QUOTE]

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