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<blockquote data-quote="Gothmog" data-source="post: 4974985" data-attributes="member: 317">Well, it is a somewhat odd circumstance.&nbsp; At this point the players aren't novices anymore- they have gamed weekly (and sometimes twice a week) for six months, and have developed a good understanding of how to play and solve problems.&nbsp; The DM for the game pre-generated the characters for my buddy and his wife, and then helped them tweak them to their desires, so it isn't like they are unoptomized.&nbsp; I looked at the characters, and they are 32 point buy characters that look like something off the char-ops forums (the save DC for the wizards spells are 17 + spell level and the ranger is also pretty dang tough).&nbsp; However, the DM is an extreme rules-stickler, and from what my friend says, he tends to focus on rather linear and direct plots.&nbsp; I don't dispute for a moment that who is running the game can play a huge role in the enjoyment of the game, but it goes beyond that in this case.For example, after reading the 3.5 PHB, my friend can't fathom why someone wouldn't prefer the static defenses of 4e over the saves of 3.5.&nbsp; Or why grapple and combat maneuvers are so complicated.&nbsp; Or critical hit ranges and confirmation rolls.&nbsp; Or why spellcasters seem so much more powerful than non-spellcasters.&nbsp; And there were other things he didn't care for.&nbsp; His wife also much prefers the 4e version of the ranger because she actually gets to have a choice in powers and abilities, rather than &quot;shoot&quot; or &quot;two-weapon attack&quot; every round.&nbsp; Not to belabor the point, but they both listed a series of mechanical and design differences they found distasteful in 3.5, and if a player isn't happy with their character or the underlying system, the game won't be as much fun.&nbsp; So while the system may not be entirely at fault for their dislike of it, it certainly does play a role.&nbsp; Moral of the story is not every system appeals to everyone.&nbsp; The same problems my friends are facing with 3.5 were the same problems I ran into during the early 2000s when I tried to introduce new gamers to D&amp;D 3.x (and at that point I enjoyed playing and running 3.x).&nbsp; During that time, I introduced 12 people to gaming via D&amp;D 3e.&nbsp; While some of them kept gaming with 3.x, most of them (9 of the 12) thought the system too arcane and unfriendly, and didn't stay with gaming, or moved to other games.&nbsp; I've not seen that situation occur at all with 4e (with 7 new gamers introduced so far, no dropouts), and in fact I'd say 4e is much more &quot;new gamer friendly&quot; than anything since 1e.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Gothmog, post: 4974985, member: 317"] Well, it is a somewhat odd circumstance. At this point the players aren't novices anymore- they have gamed weekly (and sometimes twice a week) for six months, and have developed a good understanding of how to play and solve problems. The DM for the game pre-generated the characters for my buddy and his wife, and then helped them tweak them to their desires, so it isn't like they are unoptomized. I looked at the characters, and they are 32 point buy characters that look like something off the char-ops forums (the save DC for the wizards spells are 17 + spell level and the ranger is also pretty dang tough). However, the DM is an extreme rules-stickler, and from what my friend says, he tends to focus on rather linear and direct plots. I don't dispute for a moment that who is running the game can play a huge role in the enjoyment of the game, but it goes beyond that in this case. For example, after reading the 3.5 PHB, my friend can't fathom why someone wouldn't prefer the static defenses of 4e over the saves of 3.5. Or why grapple and combat maneuvers are so complicated. Or critical hit ranges and confirmation rolls. Or why spellcasters seem so much more powerful than non-spellcasters. And there were other things he didn't care for. His wife also much prefers the 4e version of the ranger because she actually gets to have a choice in powers and abilities, rather than "shoot" or "two-weapon attack" every round. Not to belabor the point, but they both listed a series of mechanical and design differences they found distasteful in 3.5, and if a player isn't happy with their character or the underlying system, the game won't be as much fun. So while the system may not be entirely at fault for their dislike of it, it certainly does play a role. Moral of the story is not every system appeals to everyone. The same problems my friends are facing with 3.5 were the same problems I ran into during the early 2000s when I tried to introduce new gamers to D&D 3.x (and at that point I enjoyed playing and running 3.x). During that time, I introduced 12 people to gaming via D&D 3e. While some of them kept gaming with 3.x, most of them (9 of the 12) thought the system too arcane and unfriendly, and didn't stay with gaming, or moved to other games. I've not seen that situation occur at all with 4e (with 7 new gamers introduced so far, no dropouts), and in fact I'd say 4e is much more "new gamer friendly" than anything since 1e. [/QUOTE]

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