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<blockquote data-quote="Sigma" data-source="post: 210709" data-attributes="member: 3066">Not true.&nbsp; If the EL was appropriate for the characters involved, and the party left themselves open to a tactic like that, they'd get hit with sleep spells by me.&nbsp; I don't hold back with encounters that have appropriate EL's for the characters' levels.&nbsp; I wouldn't put a 1st level party against 3 1st level wizards with sleep because that would be an EL of 3, and not a fair fight.&nbsp; If it were a 3rd level party, I might try this tactic, but you would need to keep in mind how less effective sleep is against higher Hit Die opponents.I agree, it is a big pain in the butt, which is why I think that it's level is appropriate and that it is not an underpowered spell.I'm not sure what you're defining as low level.&nbsp; A 5th level barbarian with a 14 Con will have on average 48 hit points (58 when raging).&nbsp; A fighter, ranger, or paladin will only have 5 fewer hit points than that.&nbsp; A 5th level wizard casting magic missile will inflict 10.5 damage with that spell.&nbsp; Considering that the warriors gain 7.5-8.5 hit points per level, and that the wizard's magic missile does an extra 3.5 damage every two levels, magic missile rapidly decreases in utility as an opponent hits mid-levels (5-8).&nbsp; As a DM, if you try and whittle down the melee monsters with damage, it's just not going to work.&nbsp; Bestow curse, hold person, and other non-damaging spells remove a threat (generally the threat that does a lot of damage) and allow for the NPC's to gain a numbers advantage or take out a very dangerous foe.&nbsp; My point is that damage is not the end all be all of spells, and that if the players don't fear bestow curse, blindness/deafness, or other non-damaging will-save spells, then the DM isn't using those spells correctly.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sigma, post: 210709, member: 3066"] Not true. If the EL was appropriate for the characters involved, and the party left themselves open to a tactic like that, they'd get hit with sleep spells by me. I don't hold back with encounters that have appropriate EL's for the characters' levels. I wouldn't put a 1st level party against 3 1st level wizards with sleep because that would be an EL of 3, and not a fair fight. If it were a 3rd level party, I might try this tactic, but you would need to keep in mind how less effective sleep is against higher Hit Die opponents. [B][/B] I agree, it is a big pain in the butt, which is why I think that it's level is appropriate and that it is not an underpowered spell. I'm not sure what you're defining as low level. A 5th level barbarian with a 14 Con will have on average 48 hit points (58 when raging). A fighter, ranger, or paladin will only have 5 fewer hit points than that. A 5th level wizard casting magic missile will inflict 10.5 damage with that spell. Considering that the warriors gain 7.5-8.5 hit points per level, and that the wizard's magic missile does an extra 3.5 damage every two levels, magic missile rapidly decreases in utility as an opponent hits mid-levels (5-8). As a DM, if you try and whittle down the melee monsters with damage, it's just not going to work. Bestow curse, hold person, and other non-damaging spells remove a threat (generally the threat that does a lot of damage) and allow for the NPC's to gain a numbers advantage or take out a very dangerous foe. My point is that damage is not the end all be all of spells, and that if the players don't fear bestow curse, blindness/deafness, or other non-damaging will-save spells, then the DM isn't using those spells correctly. [/QUOTE]

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