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Has D&D abandoned the "martial barbarian"?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8382779" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>Not having to have characters who you feel uncomfortable playing <em>does</em> in fact, necessarily make for a better game, by any normal measure of "better" that I can think of. I've read your posts on this in this thread and you haven't presented any actual argument, just engaged in a lot of nostalgia and mythmaking.</p><p></p><p>By mythmaking I'm talking about the idea that huge hulking people are more dangerous combatants in a reliable way, which history is quick to show is not true. What history shows is that training, discipline, smart tactics, good equipment, and so on reliably defeat "I'm big and strong and my weapon is pretty huge!".</p><p></p><p>Also re: mythmaking, I mean this idea:</p><p></p><p>LOL! That's never been the case. Ever. You never needed to do that. It doesn't even make sense. Obviously a smarter warrior is a better warrior, and athletic people tend to be hot people. You're praising Sword and Sorcery (well, insulting it less than all other fantasy), but Conan is one HOTTTTTT PIECE OF BEEF, as reflected in people's reactions to him in the stories (especially The Ladieeeez who are all over that). He's not "compromising beauty". He's not a "muscle mountain" in the books. In the books he isn't Arnie-built, he's just powerfully built and tall (indeed the fact that Arnie was "too bulky" for Conan was a frequent complaint about the 1981 Conan movie in the 1980s and 1990s).</p><p></p><p>Your nostalgia is FAKE nostalgia, and your complaint about "this millenium" is just false. It's <em>never</em> been true in RPGs. Ever! Even the early short-lived "sexist version" of 1E (which a deviation from D&D, which didn't do that), the constraints you're describing were not, in fact, in place. You could be a 5'4" 110lb nerd in glasses with 18/00 Strength, you just needed to be a <em>human male </em>(who, hilariously, were stronger than any wimpy 6'7" 230lb half-orc ever could be - they were limited to 18/99). It's literally <em>a lie</em> to say you had to be a "muscle mountain".</p><p></p><p>The closest I can think of is what, Basic Roleplaying-based stuff like Elric/Stormbringer, where SIZ was a factor. Maybe some other RPGs had that, but even in those, you didn't need to be a "muscle mountain" to kill people with a sword or axe or w/e highly effectively. Certainly in D&D/AD&D that's never been the case though.<strong> It was always a choice.</strong></p><p></p><p>What you're actually complaining about, it seems, is <em>people making a different choice to the one you wanted them to make</em>. So you're mad that you can't control how other people make choices in creating their own characters. That's undeniable. That is literally what you're expressing frustration with - the fact that other people have the freedom to make characters you don't like - and you've made up an entirely fictional period of RPG history where you had to be an unattractive and dim character in order to be good in melee combat:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But that was NEVER A THING. That period didn't happen. And post-millennium, all we've seen is people's choices changing, not game rules on this.</p><p></p><p>I have to say this is one of the rare merits of being pretty old. I can remember back long enough to call out revisionist nonsense when I see it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 8382779, member: 18"] Not having to have characters who you feel uncomfortable playing [I]does[/I] in fact, necessarily make for a better game, by any normal measure of "better" that I can think of. I've read your posts on this in this thread and you haven't presented any actual argument, just engaged in a lot of nostalgia and mythmaking. By mythmaking I'm talking about the idea that huge hulking people are more dangerous combatants in a reliable way, which history is quick to show is not true. What history shows is that training, discipline, smart tactics, good equipment, and so on reliably defeat "I'm big and strong and my weapon is pretty huge!". Also re: mythmaking, I mean this idea: LOL! That's never been the case. Ever. You never needed to do that. It doesn't even make sense. Obviously a smarter warrior is a better warrior, and athletic people tend to be hot people. You're praising Sword and Sorcery (well, insulting it less than all other fantasy), but Conan is one HOTTTTTT PIECE OF BEEF, as reflected in people's reactions to him in the stories (especially The Ladieeeez who are all over that). He's not "compromising beauty". He's not a "muscle mountain" in the books. In the books he isn't Arnie-built, he's just powerfully built and tall (indeed the fact that Arnie was "too bulky" for Conan was a frequent complaint about the 1981 Conan movie in the 1980s and 1990s). Your nostalgia is FAKE nostalgia, and your complaint about "this millenium" is just false. It's [I]never[/I] been true in RPGs. Ever! Even the early short-lived "sexist version" of 1E (which a deviation from D&D, which didn't do that), the constraints you're describing were not, in fact, in place. You could be a 5'4" 110lb nerd in glasses with 18/00 Strength, you just needed to be a [I]human male [/I](who, hilariously, were stronger than any wimpy 6'7" 230lb half-orc ever could be - they were limited to 18/99). It's literally [I]a lie[/I] to say you had to be a "muscle mountain". The closest I can think of is what, Basic Roleplaying-based stuff like Elric/Stormbringer, where SIZ was a factor. Maybe some other RPGs had that, but even in those, you didn't need to be a "muscle mountain" to kill people with a sword or axe or w/e highly effectively. Certainly in D&D/AD&D that's never been the case though.[B] It was always a choice.[/B] What you're actually complaining about, it seems, is [I]people making a different choice to the one you wanted them to make[/I]. So you're mad that you can't control how other people make choices in creating their own characters. That's undeniable. That is literally what you're expressing frustration with - the fact that other people have the freedom to make characters you don't like - and you've made up an entirely fictional period of RPG history where you had to be an unattractive and dim character in order to be good in melee combat: But that was NEVER A THING. That period didn't happen. And post-millennium, all we've seen is people's choices changing, not game rules on this. I have to say this is one of the rare merits of being pretty old. I can remember back long enough to call out revisionist nonsense when I see it. [/QUOTE]
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