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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 2911807" data-attributes="member: 32164">OP chiming in here again. I actually think this has been a very enlightening discussion.I guess I really am after the sense of wonder again. With the players, of course, that naturally fades the more experience they get with the game. In my opinion, there are two ways to do this:1. Constantly introduce "new and nifty" magic, in an attempt to bring back that sense of wonder. After a while, this would lead to a game with Arcane Magic, Divine Magic, Psionic Magic, and magic with all kinds of other premises like soul-magic, invocations, musical magic, truename magic, pact magic...oh, wait...2. Have the inhabitants of the game world reflect an attitude. IF the players are roleplaying, they will naturally reflect the attitudes of the people in the setting. There was a great comment in one of the 2e books that went something like this..."Make your mundanes mundane. If all of the peasants in the world treat the fantastical as everyday, your players become much less important. Consider the following:'Dang dragon's in the back yard again Ma! Go call us an adventurer? Do it meself? Listen woman, I'm busy sorting spell components for market, I can't be bothered!'This naturally makes the PCs more important in the game world as well as preventing the players from treating magic as if it's humdrum."Now, I admit that Eberron (for example) has done a great job of preserving the delicate balancing act between making the game's assumptions make sense and still keeping the adventurers important. This is, basically, a demographic trick that Keith pulled off. If members of the adventuring classes are rare, then they're more important - especially as they become higher level. But there will probably be enough of them that they have an impact on society at large - often an impact disproportionate to their numbers. First level characters are common enough that first-level spells should be common. That IS logical. But the question is, are 5th-level characters that common? If not, then spells like invisibility may not be EITHER.I've thought about introducing a campaign-specific houserule that characters who retire from active adventuring convert levels to an NPC class at the rate of 1 level every x years. Basically, you don't get to retire as a 5th level wizard and STAY a 5th level wizard without working at it. The conversion rate would vary from campaign to campaign.One "magic as commodity" problem that's unique to 3e is: wands. In 3e, a character can use a wand for any spell ON their spell list. That means that a ranger can carry (and use!) a wand of "cure light wounds" or any other spell from 1st-level on. They don't have to wait to be spellcasters to BE spellcasters. That's something new.</blockquote>

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