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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Friend of the Dork" data-source="post: 5450840" data-attributes="member: 91954">Streamlined grappling rules was one of the rule changes that PF is applauded for, but frankly I'm not that impressed. I actually thought the 3.5 grappling rules were pretty good. We also used grappling whenever it was appropriate, but seldom as a typical tactic. Which is exaxtly what I think grappling should be for. The only real problem was the evil circle of AoOs that theoretically could ocurr: A grapples B and provokes an AoO, B uses it to make his own grapple attempt which also causes an AoO... you see where this is leading? Technically all you needed was to be armed (say with a dagger or IUS feat). Still fairly easy to fix. Grapple today removes the touch attack and replaces it with a single test pitted against the CMD (which is essentially as if the defender took 10 on his test), also the dex test is pretty much calculated into the CMD. Result is that you remove a test (quicked and easier) at the cost of making it generally harder to grapple some people. For example, a 10th level warrior with str and dex 14 will have CMD 24 which a 1st level fighter (14 str) can't succeed against. In 3.5 the 1st level warrior would first have to hit AC 12 (fairly good chance) and then win an opposed test against the warrior's BaB+str bonus (+12). Difficult, but not impossible. And of course that's not counting any ring of deflection or other defensive items that could be used. As for using swords in grapple.. I don't really care for it. Light weapons only made sense. Also now AFAIK nothing prevents you from making a full attack against the one grappling you, except the -2 penalty. Armor spikes has no advantage apart from being a weapon that can be used in grapple (at the same -2) without being held. Not losing dex to ac is ok, and pinning still allows sneak attacks. The +4 bonus to grapple CM for the "controller" is kinda weird too, as it works only on the test each round to maintain the grapple, and does not influence the defender's test to escape/take control of grapple in any way. And as far as I can tell the rules do not allow full attack to be used when making a grapple CM. This is unlike Trip and Sunder, but not the other CMs. Improved Grapple is weird, since it does not apply when the defender tries to get escape from grapple, only when he tries to grapple you instead. Also the size bonuses has dropper considerably. Now it's tricky for a hill giant to grapple a halfling (only a net 2 difference), while halflings can trip humans without much penalty (dex bonus cancels out str penalty). I must admit I prefer the old +/- 4 difference between large and huge. Now BaB matters alot more.</blockquote>

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