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<blockquote data-quote="Ariosto" data-source="post: 5121033" data-attributes="member: 80487">Nope. The system is not only just as unified, it is in essence the same system as in 3e. The latter gets presented in the 3.5 PHB with separate tables for each class, on as many different pages. With OD&amp;D or AD&amp;D, I've got it all on just two (OD&amp;D, with some of that 3e/ 4e-style interpolation) or three pages (AD&amp;D, all worked out) -- already cross-indexed with the DCs, yielding simple d20 rolls, for convenience.Why does 3e break it all into pieces? Because the focus is on piling up pieces to combine (especially in the &quot;build&quot; sub-system). To derive the actual values, we need to add in all applicable feats (which may vary from instance to instance).There are still &quot;target&quot; numbers, which the 4e DMG lays out in terms of combat role, level and encounter balance. One can jump through hoops playing the sub-game of level advancement with monsters and NPCs, or -- in 3e as well as in any other version -- one can skip that step and go straight to the end product desired.Nope. Same &quot;roll high&quot; on the d20.Or are you talking about thief functions? Well, if you really would rather indicate 20% as 81-00, or as 17-20 on d20, then go ahead. In old D&amp;D, it's a probability, not a mandated randomizing method! Besides the skill points subsystem and the already mentioned feats, the reason 3e multiplies factors is to emphasize that the DM is going to make the DC a moving target. Think you know your chances? Think again, Trap Monkey Boy!Huh?? That's what I'm seeing in 3e and 4e. That's what feats and powers and lists of skill DCs are all about.(Doesn't mean I've got to look 'em up in the books, though. Slowing the game to a crawl is not something I want, and &quot;winging it&quot; is after all about improvisation.)I don't have 2e books handy, but THAC0 is functionally the same as in 3e (target AC taking the place of &quot;BAB&quot;). Potayto, potahto. I personally prefer just to roll the die and see what I hit:roll 12: AC 2 (Plate Armor &amp; Shield)roll 11: AC 3 (Plate Armor)roll 10: AC 4 (Chain Mail &amp; Shield)roll 09: AC 5 (Chain Mail)... etc.Saving throws? A table in 1e, tables in 3e. If you want to memorize all the formulas, then knock yourself out with either set. If I'm going to refer to a book, how having it all on one page is &quot;less unified&quot; just boggles. A single lookup gives the actual roll needed in 1e. How is that less of a &quot;system&quot;?You talk &quot;buh-lo-nee&quot;, and I say &quot;bull-o-nee&quot;. Roll n or higher on d20 is the desirable result is the same whether one is rolling &quot;to hit&quot; or &quot;to save&quot;.My math was already done in the tables!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ariosto, post: 5121033, member: 80487"] Nope. The system is not only just as unified, it is in essence [I]the same system[/I] as in 3e. The latter gets presented in the 3.5 PHB with separate tables for [I]each class[/I], on as many different pages. With OD&D or AD&D, I've got it all on just two (OD&D, with some of that 3e/ 4e-style interpolation) or three pages (AD&D, all worked out) -- [B]already cross-indexed with the DCs, yielding simple d20 rolls, for convenience[/B]. Why does 3e break it all into pieces? Because the focus is on piling up pieces to combine (especially in the "build" sub-system). To derive the actual values, we need to add in all applicable feats (which may vary from instance to instance). There are still "target" numbers, which the [I]4e[/I] DMG lays out in terms of combat role, level and encounter balance. One can jump through hoops playing the sub-game of level advancement with monsters and NPCs, or -- in 3e as well as in any other version -- one can skip that step and go straight to the end product desired. Nope. Same "roll high" on the d20. Or are you talking about thief functions? Well, if you really would rather indicate 20% as 81-00, or as 17-20 on d20, then go ahead. In old D&D, it's a [I]probability[/I], not a mandated randomizing method! Besides the skill points subsystem and the already mentioned feats, the reason 3e multiplies factors is to emphasize that [I]the DM is going to make the DC a moving target[/I]. Think you know your chances? Think again, Trap Monkey Boy! Huh?? That's what I'm seeing in 3e and 4e. That's what feats and powers and lists of skill DCs are [I]all about[/I]. (Doesn't mean I've got to look 'em up in the books, though. Slowing the game to a crawl is not something I want, and "winging it" is after all about [I]improvisation[/I].) I don't have 2e books handy, but THAC0 is functionally the same as in 3e (target AC taking the place of "BAB"). Pot[I]ay[/I]to, po[I]tah[/I]to. I personally prefer just to roll the die and see what I hit: roll 12: AC 2 (Plate Armor & Shield) roll 11: AC 3 (Plate Armor) roll 10: AC 4 (Chain Mail & Shield) roll 09: AC 5 (Chain Mail) ... etc. Saving throws? A table in 1e, tables in 3e. If you want to memorize all the formulas, then knock yourself out with either set. If I'm going to refer to a book, how having it all on one page is "less unified" just boggles. A single lookup gives [I]the actual roll needed[/I] in 1e. How is that less of a "system"? You talk "buh-lo-nee", and I say "bull-o-nee". [B]Roll [I]n[/I] or higher on d20 is the desirable result[/B] is the same whether one is rolling "to hit" or "to save". My math was already [I]done[/I] in the tables! [/QUOTE]

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