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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Have the designers lost interest in short rests?
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8128141" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Well, the problem was, they didn't really work...</p><p></p><p>Spell Components - too hard to track, players would stock up on a bit of it, and then nobody had the time and energy to really keep track of them very well. Now and then a DM would invoke the rule, but it gradually became a kind of arsehat move, except for some 'ritualistic' type spells with excessively costly components where allowing it to just go ahead with no cost would break the game (or be inconvenient to the DM that day).</p><p></p><p>Casting Times - given the incredible byzantine complexity of the system for determining what happened when in D&D (there's a full flow chart for combat resolution floating around somewhere, it is a DENSE 8 page document!!!!) this was basically stillborn. Most DMs IME simply went with a crude "If someone hits you before your side gets its turn, your spell is ruined" version. That isn't NOTHING, but it did mean that even powerful high level spells were pretty usable. Besides, things like Stone Skin, Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Flying/Levitation, and Haste were all quite effective counters (assuming that the big fighter and wall of hirelings in front of you didn't suffice). Many of these things were available in magic item form, all you needed was one of them to drastically reduce interruptions.</p><p></p><p>Other casting restrictions - There were statements in various places in the rules that casters must be motionless, perfectly stable, etc. and some Gygax advice to basically beat down casters with this rule. Yet at the same time there were ample examples of casters firing spells from horseback, etc. So take these things with a big dose of salt. Again, DMs might suddenly decide to hose you with these rules, but it was usually kinda peeing on the player's parade to do so unless the situation was really VERY dubious.</p><p></p><p>Spell Availability - In all the groups I played in, this was not a HUGE factor much of the time. There were usually several 'wizard' type casters around, they would regularly exchange spells. NPC groups which LACKED such a caster were usually canon fodder, so they appeared fairly regularly, and their books became our books as well. Any established party would soon have a library containing the majority of useful low level spells, which would be gifted onto every new PC or NPC member. High level spells could be a bit more problematic, but if you've spent years adventuring and transcribing most scrolls, and have a high INT, which all high level casters pretty much did, then you could always fork out some time and money to research a spell if it was REALLY seriously worth having for some reason. </p><p></p><p>The upshot being, in most practical play (I ran and played in dozens of AD&D campaigns between 1977 and 1997 or so and played several high level wizards) these restrictions were more of a kind of game you played with the DM where you came up with various ploys and strategems which largely obviated them. The few times you couldn't avoid some issue, money or spell casting would very likely provide a workaround. </p><p></p><p>Even the final limits of restriction, good saves and magic resistance, were something you could handle. All that was required was enough cleverness to devise a way to INDIRECTLY attack your enemy. The most basic simply ploy was dropping a Wall of Iron on them, which doesn't allow for MR/Saves! Stone to Mud and Dispel Magic could often be employed in similar ways, but even a Magic Missile arranged to trigger a collapse or something like that was a perfectly nice solution. Once I even recall handing the bad guy a cursed wand! lol.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8128141, member: 82106"] Well, the problem was, they didn't really work... Spell Components - too hard to track, players would stock up on a bit of it, and then nobody had the time and energy to really keep track of them very well. Now and then a DM would invoke the rule, but it gradually became a kind of arsehat move, except for some 'ritualistic' type spells with excessively costly components where allowing it to just go ahead with no cost would break the game (or be inconvenient to the DM that day). Casting Times - given the incredible byzantine complexity of the system for determining what happened when in D&D (there's a full flow chart for combat resolution floating around somewhere, it is a DENSE 8 page document!!!!) this was basically stillborn. Most DMs IME simply went with a crude "If someone hits you before your side gets its turn, your spell is ruined" version. That isn't NOTHING, but it did mean that even powerful high level spells were pretty usable. Besides, things like Stone Skin, Mage Armor, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Flying/Levitation, and Haste were all quite effective counters (assuming that the big fighter and wall of hirelings in front of you didn't suffice). Many of these things were available in magic item form, all you needed was one of them to drastically reduce interruptions. Other casting restrictions - There were statements in various places in the rules that casters must be motionless, perfectly stable, etc. and some Gygax advice to basically beat down casters with this rule. Yet at the same time there were ample examples of casters firing spells from horseback, etc. So take these things with a big dose of salt. Again, DMs might suddenly decide to hose you with these rules, but it was usually kinda peeing on the player's parade to do so unless the situation was really VERY dubious. Spell Availability - In all the groups I played in, this was not a HUGE factor much of the time. There were usually several 'wizard' type casters around, they would regularly exchange spells. NPC groups which LACKED such a caster were usually canon fodder, so they appeared fairly regularly, and their books became our books as well. Any established party would soon have a library containing the majority of useful low level spells, which would be gifted onto every new PC or NPC member. High level spells could be a bit more problematic, but if you've spent years adventuring and transcribing most scrolls, and have a high INT, which all high level casters pretty much did, then you could always fork out some time and money to research a spell if it was REALLY seriously worth having for some reason. The upshot being, in most practical play (I ran and played in dozens of AD&D campaigns between 1977 and 1997 or so and played several high level wizards) these restrictions were more of a kind of game you played with the DM where you came up with various ploys and strategems which largely obviated them. The few times you couldn't avoid some issue, money or spell casting would very likely provide a workaround. Even the final limits of restriction, good saves and magic resistance, were something you could handle. All that was required was enough cleverness to devise a way to INDIRECTLY attack your enemy. The most basic simply ploy was dropping a Wall of Iron on them, which doesn't allow for MR/Saves! Stone to Mud and Dispel Magic could often be employed in similar ways, but even a Magic Missile arranged to trigger a collapse or something like that was a perfectly nice solution. Once I even recall handing the bad guy a cursed wand! lol. [/QUOTE]
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