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<blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 2256403" data-attributes="member: 2205">So many responses!&nbsp; One common theme seems to be what the definition of &quot;the dungeon&quot; that may or may not have been lost from the hobby is.Here's my belief; despite Celebrim's quite insightful post about how campaign management can be done via &quot;dungeon methodology&quot;, that is not what is meant by &quot;the dungeon&quot; when most folks talk about &quot;the dungeon&quot; in D&amp;D.&nbsp; Rather, they're talking about a paradigm in which they go into some kind of structure; caves, underground complexes, castles in the sky, linked bubble-like demiplanes; it doesn't really matter what they are.&nbsp; They interact with a series of traps, they interact with &quot;monsters&quot; that are in &quot;rooms&quot; guarding &quot;treasure.&quot;&nbsp; All of those are in quotes, because theoretically, they could be broadened; the monsters could be a rival party of PCs, the rooms could be all kinds of things, etc.But it's a play style and GM style that, if it has fuzzy boundaries, at least is typically recognized when it's seen, I think.&nbsp; It has to do with goals; clearing out rooms, or pacifying areas of &quot;the dungeon&quot;, it was to do with the types of challenges expected, and other things like that.&nbsp; It takes quite a bit of semantical acrobatics to force &quot;The Duchess's Tea Party, with it's associated political backstabbing and manuevering&quot; into a dungeon paradigm, just as it does &quot;hunt for food in the wilderness so you don't starve to death&quot; type of game, just to use two examples of game types that I think are particularly opposite the dungeoncrawling approach.&nbsp; A lot of urban games have only very limited dungeon-like experiences; sure, you can call the assassin's safehouse, which your PCs have to break into as part of a sting, or whatever, a little mini-dungeon, but I think that just confuses the issue.Gaah!&nbsp; I don't know if that's clear or not.&nbsp; In any case, more than anything, dungeoncrawling is a paradigm of play, regardless of what the specifics of &quot;the dungeon&quot; are, and it's not a paradigm of play of which I'm particularly fond.&nbsp; In fact, I quite actively dislike it except in small doses.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Desdichado, post: 2256403, member: 2205"] So many responses! One common theme seems to be what the definition of "the dungeon" that may or may not have been lost from the hobby is. Here's my belief; despite Celebrim's quite insightful post about how campaign management can be done via "dungeon methodology", that is not what is meant by "the dungeon" when most folks talk about "the dungeon" in D&D. Rather, they're talking about a paradigm in which they go into some kind of structure; caves, underground complexes, castles in the sky, linked bubble-like demiplanes; it doesn't really matter what they are. They interact with a series of traps, they interact with "monsters" that are in "rooms" guarding "treasure." All of those are in quotes, because theoretically, they could be broadened; the monsters could be a rival party of PCs, the rooms could be all kinds of things, etc. But it's a play style and GM style that, if it has fuzzy boundaries, at least is typically recognized when it's seen, I think. It has to do with goals; clearing out rooms, or pacifying areas of "the dungeon", it was to do with the types of challenges expected, and other things like that. It takes quite a bit of semantical acrobatics to force "The Duchess's Tea Party, with it's associated political backstabbing and manuevering" into a dungeon paradigm, just as it does "hunt for food in the wilderness so you don't starve to death" type of game, just to use two examples of game types that I think are particularly opposite the dungeoncrawling approach. A lot of urban games have only very limited dungeon-like experiences; sure, you can call the assassin's safehouse, which your PCs have to break into as part of a sting, or whatever, a little mini-dungeon, but I think that just confuses the issue. Gaah! I don't know if that's clear or not. In any case, more than anything, dungeoncrawling is a paradigm of play, regardless of what the specifics of "the dungeon" are, and it's not a paradigm of play of which I'm particularly fond. In fact, I quite actively dislike it except in small doses. [/QUOTE]

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