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Have we rebalanced the Champion Yet?
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<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 7950302" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>Yes, that calculation was done.</p><p></p><p>The other one is the BM who manages to get a riptose strike for every die. So 4 extra attacks (and 4.5 damage per hit on them) per short rest.</p><p></p><p>We could also balance the half-orc champion for +1.2 damage per hit. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>At 4 rounds/combat and 3 combats/rest that is 12 rounds for the champion for 7.6 damage per short rest over subclassless fighter, compared to 18 for the simplest BM.</p><p></p><p>Assuming 16-18 stat and 2d6 weapon and attacking 14 AC at level 3-5, each attack is +5or+6 for 2d6+3or4 (10/11). Each attack is worth .05*7 + .6or.65*10or11 = 6.35 or 7.5 damage. Extra dice on it are worth .65 or .7 times die size, or +2.925 or +3.15. So the BM riposte is worth 9.275 to 10.65 damage for a die.</p><p></p><p>The riposte-BM gets 4 attacks for 37.1 to 42.6.</p><p></p><p>At level 20, you have 6 (and maybe) more dice per short rest. You might be using a flaming greatsword for 4d6+5 damage. Enemy AC is going to be 18ish, while your attack is +11. So an extra attack is 4d6+5+1d12 or 25.5 damage and +20.5 on crit, for 70% accuracy and 5% crit or 18.875 damage times 6 is 113.25 damage per short rest (plus some extra if you activate Relentless, but that is dangerous).</p><p></p><p>The level 3-4 champion is getting 7.6 damage. The level 20 champion with a flametongue and some source of perma-advantage is getting .177 * 14 * (4 * (3*4 + 2)) = 138.768 damage, without .1 * 14 * (4 * (3*4 + 2)) = 78.4 damage. But I didn't include advantage in my calcuation of the riposte-BM.</p><p></p><p>Riposte-BM has 1.44x damage at level 20 and 4.88x extra damage at level 3. Again, the gap is much much larger at level 3 in scale terms. In absolute terms, it is actually pretty flat: 29.5 damage vs 34.85 at level 20.</p><p></p><p>In terms of swings, it is 4.6 swings/rest gap at level 3 and 2.4 swings gap at level 20.</p><p></p><p>A Flaming sword with advanage and GWM against an AC of 18 is .75 hit, .1 crit for 35.5 on a hit and +20.5 on a crit, so 28.675 per swing, a 1.52x scale on the extra damage on a BM. The Champion's extra damage scales by 1.77x in comparison. The gap falls to 33.37 damage in favor of the BM with perma-advantage and GWM, but this is only like one and a half swings.</p><p></p><p>Gaining an extra attack on an action surge gives more swings at 20 than at 3, so it leans the wrong way. Getting more swings on a second wind is the same number of swings per rest. Damage per hit gives more than 4x the damage at 20 than at 3, so also is a poor fit.</p><p></p><p>Damage on crit is like 6x larger at 20 than at 3, so that is also a bad place to put power (worse than damage per hit).</p><p></p><p><strong>Per-Hit damage</strong>: 4.3x as much damage at 20 than 3 (gap mostly unchanged with advantage)</p><p><strong>Per-Crit damage</strong>: 6.5x as much damage at 20 than 3 (gap larger with advantage)</p><p><strong>Extra Swings</strong>: 2.3x as much damage at 20 than 3 (gap larger with advantage).</p><p><strong>Extra Swings on AS</strong>: 4.5x as much damage at 20 than 3.</p><p><strong>Damage Gap needed to fill</strong>: 30 at level 3, 35 at level 20.</p><p></p><p>We could aim for the gap to be on average closed at 3 and 20 -- be under at 3, and equally over at 20. To make this as small as possible, that is extra swings.</p><p></p><p>Our overall target is +32.5 damage. Swings are worth an average of (6.35 + 18.55)/2 = 12.45 (without features, using typical stats/weapons). 32.5/12.45 is 2.61 extra swings per short rest.</p><p></p><p>That is pretty close to 1 extra swing per encounter.</p><p></p><p>We want to keep this simple. And I want to avoid this scaling insanely with multiclassing. So how about:</p><p></p><p><strong>Action Hero</strong></p><p>Starting at 3rd level, a Champion can make a weapon attack as a bonus action on the first turn of combat. It they qualify for the Two Weapon Fighting bonus action attack, they may instead make up to two weapon attacks as a bonus action, but no more than 1 with each weapon.</p><p></p><p>I think that is easy to remember and doesn't require tracking resources, so should be suitable for a Champion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 7950302, member: 72555"] Yes, that calculation was done. The other one is the BM who manages to get a riptose strike for every die. So 4 extra attacks (and 4.5 damage per hit on them) per short rest. We could also balance the half-orc champion for +1.2 damage per hit. ;) At 4 rounds/combat and 3 combats/rest that is 12 rounds for the champion for 7.6 damage per short rest over subclassless fighter, compared to 18 for the simplest BM. Assuming 16-18 stat and 2d6 weapon and attacking 14 AC at level 3-5, each attack is +5or+6 for 2d6+3or4 (10/11). Each attack is worth .05*7 + .6or.65*10or11 = 6.35 or 7.5 damage. Extra dice on it are worth .65 or .7 times die size, or +2.925 or +3.15. So the BM riposte is worth 9.275 to 10.65 damage for a die. The riposte-BM gets 4 attacks for 37.1 to 42.6. At level 20, you have 6 (and maybe) more dice per short rest. You might be using a flaming greatsword for 4d6+5 damage. Enemy AC is going to be 18ish, while your attack is +11. So an extra attack is 4d6+5+1d12 or 25.5 damage and +20.5 on crit, for 70% accuracy and 5% crit or 18.875 damage times 6 is 113.25 damage per short rest (plus some extra if you activate Relentless, but that is dangerous). The level 3-4 champion is getting 7.6 damage. The level 20 champion with a flametongue and some source of perma-advantage is getting .177 * 14 * (4 * (3*4 + 2)) = 138.768 damage, without .1 * 14 * (4 * (3*4 + 2)) = 78.4 damage. But I didn't include advantage in my calcuation of the riposte-BM. Riposte-BM has 1.44x damage at level 20 and 4.88x extra damage at level 3. Again, the gap is much much larger at level 3 in scale terms. In absolute terms, it is actually pretty flat: 29.5 damage vs 34.85 at level 20. In terms of swings, it is 4.6 swings/rest gap at level 3 and 2.4 swings gap at level 20. A Flaming sword with advanage and GWM against an AC of 18 is .75 hit, .1 crit for 35.5 on a hit and +20.5 on a crit, so 28.675 per swing, a 1.52x scale on the extra damage on a BM. The Champion's extra damage scales by 1.77x in comparison. The gap falls to 33.37 damage in favor of the BM with perma-advantage and GWM, but this is only like one and a half swings. Gaining an extra attack on an action surge gives more swings at 20 than at 3, so it leans the wrong way. Getting more swings on a second wind is the same number of swings per rest. Damage per hit gives more than 4x the damage at 20 than at 3, so also is a poor fit. Damage on crit is like 6x larger at 20 than at 3, so that is also a bad place to put power (worse than damage per hit). [B]Per-Hit damage[/B]: 4.3x as much damage at 20 than 3 (gap mostly unchanged with advantage) [B]Per-Crit damage[/B]: 6.5x as much damage at 20 than 3 (gap larger with advantage) [B]Extra Swings[/B]: 2.3x as much damage at 20 than 3 (gap larger with advantage). [B]Extra Swings on AS[/B]: 4.5x as much damage at 20 than 3. [B]Damage Gap needed to fill[/B]: 30 at level 3, 35 at level 20. We could aim for the gap to be on average closed at 3 and 20 -- be under at 3, and equally over at 20. To make this as small as possible, that is extra swings. Our overall target is +32.5 damage. Swings are worth an average of (6.35 + 18.55)/2 = 12.45 (without features, using typical stats/weapons). 32.5/12.45 is 2.61 extra swings per short rest. That is pretty close to 1 extra swing per encounter. We want to keep this simple. And I want to avoid this scaling insanely with multiclassing. So how about: [B]Action Hero[/B] Starting at 3rd level, a Champion can make a weapon attack as a bonus action on the first turn of combat. It they qualify for the Two Weapon Fighting bonus action attack, they may instead make up to two weapon attacks as a bonus action, but no more than 1 with each weapon. I think that is easy to remember and doesn't require tracking resources, so should be suitable for a Champion. [/QUOTE]
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