Have you grown dependent on Challenge Ratings?

Calico_Jack73

First Post
I was briefing considering putting together a one-shot game of 1e or 2e AD&D for my gaming group when I came to the frightening conclusion that I've become dependent on a monster's CR for balancing an encounter against a party. Exactly how did we do it back in the old days? You really couldn't go off a monster's HD because obviously any special abilities could sway an encounter beyond the capabilities of the party. I also came to the realization that I let CR weigh too much on my mind when I plan encounters for my 3.5E game. I may come up with a great idea for an encounter but then have to shelve it because the party is too high or low level for it.

How about the rest of you oldsters... have any of you grown dependent on CR to plan encounters?
 

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I don't want to say "dependent", but I certainly use CRs more than anything else when planning encounters. However, I still quickly look at the monsters' stat blocks - and the design of 3e has allowed me to more quickly (than in the past) see how an encounter will likely play out. There have been some goofy CRs of certain monsters in 3.x (*cough*MM3*cough*) and I've ignored class-based CRs from Day 1. (I'm surprised people are still talking about it now - it was a big "NO DUH" to me right from the very start.)

(In the old days, I didn't use HD - I used the XP value as the basis in my 'appropriate challenge' analysis. It wasn't great (read: terrible), but it was a start, and much better than HD. 1e/2e certainly took me much longer to determine how tough an encounter would be (since I had to pretty much read the entire entry to see if there were any wahoo powers) and I made more errors in a shorter amount of time than I do now [in which errors are virtually non-existent in my 3e games].)
 

Calico_Jack73 said:
I was briefing considering putting together a one-shot game of 1e or 2e AD&D for my gaming group when I came to the frightening conclusion that I've become dependent on a monster's CR for balancing an encounter against a party. Exactly how did we do it back in the old days? You really couldn't go off a monster's HD because obviously any special abilities could sway an encounter beyond the capabilities of the party. I also came to the realization that I let CR weigh too much on my mind when I plan encounters for my 3.5E game. I may come up with a great idea for an encounter but then have to shelve it because the party is too high or low level for it.

How about the rest of you oldsters... have any of you grown dependent on CR to plan encounters?
Dependent? No, because CRs are a guideline at best. If you don't run a game according to the "standard" model of x number of encounters per day, with y number of encounters needed to level up, the CR system becomes largely meaningless. (For example, a game based around a hectic escape from an enemy stronghold, followed by a mass battle to defend your home from enemy invaders cannot use the CR system as a meaningful guide, as the encounters flow one into the other and aren't measurable as discrete entities).

More important than CR is an understanding of how much damage characters can take and deal out when compared to their foes (for combat), and how important to the PCs non-combat encounters are when awarding XP. These considerations lie at the heart of the CR system, but they can (and should) exist on their own as valid considerations.

In AD&D1e, for example, there were rough guides akin to challenge ratings. Monsters were assigned "levels" unrelated to their actual Hit Dice. Although this system topped out sooner than the CR system, it was a handy starting point. A DM, however, had to be able to perform the kind of analysis I mentioned in the paragraph above - namely, he needed to be able to assess the impact monsters would have on characters and vice versa.

This was similar to how CR is assessed these days - a DM needed to develop an idea of how often a monster might hit a PC of a certain AC, and how much damage it might do, how likely a PC might be to fail his save against a monster's attack etc etc. It was basically the same sort of understanding that is required when assessing CRs, although it was harder to do as the systems in previous editions weren't as homogenised as they are today. Essentially, knowing how to balance encounters came from understanding the stats involved and through direct play experience.

I do prefer the CR system on the whole - less window for error and less work on my part. But it was certainly possible in previous editions - just a bit more of a headache :D...
 

No. There more like guidelines really.

When I DM my party has 5-7 PCs in it and they probably play better than I run the encounter.
So it really skews how ability to use CRs correctly. I usually go 2-3 CRs higher than recommended to get a good balance.

I do like them to help give me an idea on what kind of creature(s) I am looking for but that is about it.
 

I prefer to think in terms of simulated reality. If an orc band has 100 potential warriors, I'll try and split up what each will be doing. Some will be serving the leader, some helping to protect the young and elderly, others manning outposts, others still searching for food and water. All sorts of jobs are available. Depending on the culture of the creature different tactics and groupings will result. For different potential groups I'll determine a CR, but they are not necessarily balanced for the PCs. Instead, harder CRs are more often those that are more valueable to the group. In the example, attacking the orc leader is probably the toughest encounter, but few PCs would likely reach it before reaching others. After spotting and evading weaker combats a group of PCs should be able to determine on their own they are "deep within enemy territory" and have a sense of how difficult certain combats may be. Placing the high class level orcs in a sensible way helps defend against TPKs and reflects a sensible world. Because the groups split and rejoin (like guards on patrol), the CRs are more for determining EL-based experience afterwards.
 


Calico_Jack73 said:
How about the rest of you oldsters... have any of you grown dependent on CR to plan encounters?

Not in the least. I don't pick monsters for their CR I pick monsters becasue they would be in the adventure that I'm writing.
 

Oh, hell no. I use CR as a loose guidline. but that is about it.

In previous editions, Damage did not rack up as fast as in 3E. 1E Ogres doing 1d10 damage is a lot different from 3.5E Ogres doing 2d8+7. Eyeballing the damage output, Ac and abilities works well enough in the older stuff.
 


I find it works well for the most part; there are a couple bumps in the CR system (trolls, for instance) but on the whole I've found it to be a much better guide than the 'level' of the dungeon or the HD of the creature.

I'll normally plan a range of CR's for encounters; a normal equal-CR encounter should consume X resources or hit points, thus a CR 4 for a first level party is going to be a damn tough fight for them.
 

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