Have you heard about the "Pathfinder Online Technology Demo" Kickstarter?

[Morrus]

Due to the increasing volume of news about Kickstarter projects, I usually put them on their own site, RPG Kickstarters. This particular project, though, I'm giving a little extra love.

Pathfinder Online was announced in November 2011. Goblinworks, the company behind the game, was founded by Paizo co-owner Lisa Stevens (Pathfinder RPG, Vampire: The Masquerade, Magic: The Gathering), game industry veteran Ryan S. Dancey (Dungeons & Dragons Third Edition, EVE Online), and experienced MMO developer Mark Kalmes (Microsoft, Cryptic Studios, CCP).

The company is now running a Kickstarter project to create a "technology demo", which will then be used to attract investors. It aims to raise $50,000 (at the time of posting this, it had already passed $30,000).

This Kickstarter will fund the Technology Demo of the Pathfinder Online Massively Multiplayer Online RPG. The Technology Demo will be fully playable, integrating account management, character creation, a virtual world server, multiple simultaneously connected clients, middleware used for rendering landscapes and characters, basic game mechanics, and player communications. The demo will only support a few simultaneous users exploring a couple of small locations, so the general public won't be able to play it, but we will produce a short video of the demo that everyone will be able to experience, and a special longer video exclusively for backers of this Kickstarter.

Your support of the Technology Demo will help us raise awareness of Pathfinder Online and will show potential investors what the game is really about. Funding this demo will also signal to potential partners that Pathfinder Online has an audience that's large enough and dedicated enough to allow the long-term success of the MMO. Nothing speaks louder than a ton of people putting up money to show their support of a new concept—that’s the genius element of Kickstarter!

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[TarionzCousin]

We had better hurry!

More info on this and Goblinworks can be found at Paizo.com.

 

[Alphastream]

There is a fair amount of bashing on Twitter for a Kickstarter that just creates an investor demo. Thinking about it, though, I am really ok with this. I think it is very open with what it is, and I think fans are making as good or better a decision on this Kickstarter as on any other (a lot of times fans are basically funding to see what they want - see the Car Wars support level for SJG's Ogre Kickstarter).

To me, the biggest news is these two bits:

First, as a fan of his work (and because I'm not big on MMOs), the big news is Rich Baker working for Paizo. This should be received as great news by everyone. It is the best of what can happen when someone leaves a company - they cross-pollinate another RPG. Rich Brings a wealth of experience about D&D into this Pathfinder effort. This is a nice side area where he can work without worry of breaking any WotC NDAs, while adding value through his incredible experience in setting, story, and adventure design. Great stuff (and on his blog he had expressed interest in perhaps transitioning to video game work). For WotC fans, this is actually the best way he could return to WotC some day, as it removes any issues that might have existed previously (since he is so well regarded within WotC, the reason may have been cost/fit/ability to rise upwards, etc. and not something that would prevent his rehiring).

The other interesting bit (especially if you like MMOs, or if you worry about the drain on Paizo itself) is that they needed to do this. It may signal that initial discussions weren't doing the things mentioned in the kickstarter: raising investor capital, securing talent, securing technical partners. That's not a huge worry, but it suggests the risk needed mitigation and the vehicle to do so is this Kickstarter. Clearly this will fund, and clearly it is also a clever way to get the word out. But, there is that possibility that the initial attempts weren't working.

So, now we will have a working video demo. It will be interesting to see if that demo reaches its goal of attracting investors/talent/partners and whether further Kickstarters are employed. Could Kickstarter cover all aspects of an MMO, such as we saw with Shadowrun? "Today's Kickstarter is for the Pirate and Gunslinger... if you want us to build them..."

Again, I'm largely ok with that, though I don't want to see companies overextend, especially for paper RPGs. Kickstarter is awesome, but many of my friends who were early Kickstarter fans are starting to realize they haven't just been spending the cash for the month... they've pretty much spent more on Kickstarter than they want to spend all of this year... and they are dialing back. There are only so many "for $30-100 you get a T-Shirt to say you backed it" Kickstarters a person can support.

 

[Janaxstrus]

Wonder if my wife would kill me for a 5k pledge

 

[Maxboy]

They are asking people to eat their entrepreneurial risk of failure.

 

[Cergorach]

Also not a fan of the model they are using, as if Kickstarter has become THE new marketing tool. To be honest, there are far more interesting projects on Kickstarter that actually deliver a product for the consumer and not a tech demo for potential investors...

Now if they were using Kickstarter to actually fund the Pathfinder MMO, that would be different. As much as I like Paizo and what they are doing with Pathfinder, this doesn't feel kosher, if you know what I mean...

Not to mention that the rewards are enormously crappy compared to what some of the recent popular Kickstarter projects have offered. Projects like Ogre, Zombicide, Shadowrun Returns, etc.

 

[MarkChevallier]

They are asking people to eat their entrepreneurial risk of failure.

Curse them! Trying to minimise their risks! It's Un-American! Someone call Ayn Rand!

 

[Alphastream]

Not to mention that the rewards are enormously crappy compared to what some of the recent popular Kickstarter projects have offered. Projects like Ogre, Zombicide, Shadowrun Returns, etc.

The rewards have to be worth it to the people choosing them... unless you think the reward levels aren't clear? I don't see any trickery. If you want to see a Pathfinder MMO, and are willing to pay for the technology demo, and you like the rewards, you pay. Yes, this is like paying twice for a game, maybe far more than that. And you might not get anything that really means anything if it falls apart. But, that should be clear.

I suspect we can find a lot of people willing to do this, at least for the short term, for a number of RPG projects. I'm not sure it has legs for a long term strategy (for example, Paizo using Kickstarter always to fund each RPG print book's creation - but you only fund the creation and still have to buy the product).

 

[filthgrinder]

I actually thought this was a cool idea at first. Kickstarter is really becoming "the" place to fund new game development. Then I saw the kickstarter goal.

$50K.

That's where I jumped off. If you read the announcement, one thing they mention is they didn't want to fund development "month to month" because they wanted to gather in "top flight talent", and to do that they need to be solid and long term stability.

Again, $50K.

I understand that this is just a tech demo, but... ugh.

This is an MMO. This is a vast-complex-HUGE undertaking to get right. It's a large multi-talent project that requires a large team with different skill sets to come on board.

$50K is not even the yearly salary of ONE just out of college developer. Hell, it's honestly barely the cost of hardware for the development environment. $50K is a DROP IN THE BUCKET of what this is going to take. Even for a tech demo.

If they already have the talent, equipment, and spec to accomplish the tech demo, $50K isn't really putting a dent into it. If they don't have that foundation to start development, $50K isn't going to get them there.

To me, it seems like this is a really low kickstarter goal where they expect the overwhelming out pouring support of the community to skyrocket them past the goal. They look at the million, to two million projects out there and go "oooh, us too".

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but this really seems like it's just a marketing thing to get the name out with the potential to blow up and inject cash to the project. It's not actually helping to "kickstart" the project with such a low goal. The laughably low goal is just there so that they easily make it (they already have), they do the tech demo with the resources and funds already in place, and they drum up interested and excitement for the project.

Which really isn't what kickstarter is supposed to be used for.

 

[AeroDm]

The rewards have to be worth it to the people choosing them... unless you think the reward levels aren't clear? I don't see any trickery. If you want to see a Pathfinder MMO, and are willing to pay for the technology demo, and you like the rewards, you pay. Yes, this is like paying twice for a game, maybe far more than that. And you might not get anything that really means anything if it falls apart. But, that should be clear.

I suspect we can find a lot of people willing to do this, at least for the short term, for a number of RPG projects. I'm not sure it has legs for a long term strategy (for example, Paizo using Kickstarter always to fund each RPG print book's creation - but you only fund the creation and still have to buy the product).

I also see no problems with what they are doing. They're using Kickstarter to raise funds instead of to pre-order a product. Since they're clear about everything, this falls squarely in the intended uses of KS.

My concern lies in the execution. Every time WotC has tried to branch into some digital medium it has ended up hurting the core product line. Maybe it consumes all their time, maybe it siphons off money, or maybe it gives investors decision making authority that hurts the brand. Regardless, I just have fingers crossed that Paizo has set everything up to make sure their core products will have everything they need to keep chugging along whether or not the MMO takes off.

 

[Cergorach]

The rewards have to be worth it to the people choosing them... unless you think the reward levels aren't clear?

Sure, there are folks that buy diamond encrusted iPhones, those folks might find the amount they pay for x 'worth' it. Worth is a very subjective thing, and imho the stuff they offer at the prices they ask is just to much imho. A PF 64 page booklet sets you back $13.99 for the pdf or $19.99 for the hardcopy and the pdf. Here they offer a 32 page pdf with 32 page promotional addendum for PFO for $15, if you want a printed copy and the pdf it's $50... That's bad value imho and especially compared to Paizo's own pdf/print products...

I don't see any trickery. If you want to see a Pathfinder MMO, and are willing to pay for the technology demo, and you like the rewards, you pay. Yes, this is like paying twice for a game, maybe far more than that. And you might not get anything that really means anything if it falls apart. But, that should be clear.

I'm not talking about trickery. If you want a PFO MMO, then you should support a kickstarter that's goal is to actually make the MMO and not some tech demo. Rewards should imho be related to the MMO, a pdf/printed book should be a bonus at level x, not be the 'main product' of the kickstarter (if you want that make a Kickstarter for that product). They announced PFO 6 months ago, should have been working at it for at least a while before that. But to date they don't have any footage to share, as far as I can see they haven't even started coding. How difficult is it to raise $50k for a tech demo for a company like Paizo (who is the founder/owner of Goblinworks)? I get the feeling folks that buy into this Kickstarter are taking a risk of a risk. They should already have the project specs and thus know what they need money wise to complete the project. Run it as a Kickstarter, list the bare bones amount (plus transaction and rewards costs) and let it be raised, or not. They pretty much stated that they don't expect to raise the cash for the MMO with Kickstarter, what makes you think investors will suddenly feel different from the fans?

I suspect we can find a lot of people willing to do this, at least for the short term, for a number of RPG projects. I'm not sure it has legs for a long term strategy (for example, Paizo using Kickstarter always to fund each RPG print book's creation - but you only fund the creation and still have to buy the product).

Yeah, folks that think that PFO is a pathfinder computer game might want to dig into the FAQ on the Goblinworks website, a not often mentioned fact of PFO is that they won't be using the Pathfinder game system, they'll be using something else. The location of PFO will be in the River Kingdoms, but it'll be a very small section of the Echo Woods that has essentially never been documented. What they are doing is essentially taking a generic RPG MMO slapping the Pathfinder logo on it and using a couple of names of the PF setting, Whoopie! Maybe if your lucky they'll throw in a couple of PF specific monsters for you to fight using this mystery system....

The only thing they have is their reputation, vague idea of the MMO they want to make and a vague description of the Thornwood 'setting'. Honestly, how this ever got through the Kickstarter approval process is a great mystery to me.

Don't get me wrong I'm ever great full for Ryan for the OGL, but what's Ryan's experience with MMOs? Yeah, Eve Online at CCP, but he was their Chief Marketing Officer...

He’s been called “the Steve Jobs of MMO Marketing.” While Chief Marketing Officer of CCP from 2007 to 2010, he increased paid subscribers to CCP’s flagship sci-fi MMO EVE Online by 50%—an unequaled achievement for a 5+ year old MMO.

Right.... There's a reason why I don't play EVE anymore (for the last 1.5-2 years), but I won't blame that on Ryan (alone).

Lisa is the Queen Goddess of Paizo and therefor Pathfinder, I'll always be great full for that, but...

In 1991, she left White Wolf to help Peter Adkison start Wizards of the Coast.

Whoa! That sounds impressive, until you know that WotC was founded in 1990...

Mark worked on the WoD MMO, and I did find that the clothing tech demo was extremely impressive (don't know if he worked on that). But after 5+ years there's still no WoD MMO... I sure hope PFO gets released a lot quicker, but to be honest, after the last six months, I doubt it...

You know why Kickstarter projects like Double Fine, Wasteland 2, and Shadowrun Returns raised such incredible amounts? Because their primary backers had proven themselves (time and again) in the relevant branch.

Double Fine => Tim Schafer
Wasteland 2 => Brian Fargo
Shadowrun Returns => Jordan Weisman

If it was a kickstarter for a traditional pnp RPG, Lisa would have been the perfect spokes person, if it was a kickstarter for a new kind of Open Source licence for RPGs or something related, Ryan would be the perfect spokes person. As it stands, you don't let Ryan near a RPG property, an e-mail account, and for his own safety, near old-skool WoD or EVE fans... ;-)

 

[darjr]

Maybe it's brilliant marketing.

What if they have talent and investment and tools/hardware. They were going to need to do the demo anyway. $50K sounds like something they could achieve and not have to face a failed kickstarter, with the chance that it'll go much higher.

It's at $57K already and there are 29 days left. It looks like they'll go well over $50K by the end.

I think it is very smart, and kinda exciting, and a great way to get folks involved from the beginning.

edit: The FAQ is nice and I'm no expert but $50K sounds about right for what they mean by the demo.

 

[Dannager]

I like it. Kickstarter is fundamentally about supporting the things you want to see in this world. Reward levels be damned, it's a way of saying, "The world does not have this thing that I think the world really ought to have, and I am going to throw my tangible support behind making this thing a reality." The rewards are just icing on the cake.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Yeah, this seems a bit of a dodgy kickstarter project.

 

[Dannager]

It's pretty straightforward guys; if you think the project is dodgy, don't fund it. Given the history of the company, there is no reasonable chance that you're being maliciously scammed.

 

[Shayuri]

I am agreeing with Dannager.

Kickstarter really is all about the free marketplace of ideas. I think that reservations about what the Pathfinder Online Kickstarter is 'really' doing are perfectly fine...and the appropriate response for people who have doubts is not to fund.

I totally understand why someone would scratch their heads and ask, "What am I really getting for this?" And why they might decide 'Not enough.' And decide not to pay in.

The whole crowd-sourced funding thing is still pretty new, at this scale at least. There's gonna be bumps...people will try to spin it this way and that, and see what works. So if you see something you're not sure of, or don't like, don't fund it. Let the market speak.

 

[freeAgent]

I actually thought this was a cool idea at first. Kickstarter is really becoming "the" place to fund new game development. Then I saw the kickstarter goal.

$50K.

That's where I jumped off. If you read the announcement, one thing they mention is they didn't want to fund development "month to month" because they wanted to gather in "top flight talent", and to do that they need to be solid and long term stability.

Again, $50K.

I understand that this is just a tech demo, but... ugh.

This is an MMO. This is a vast-complex-HUGE undertaking to get right. It's a large multi-talent project that requires a large team with different skill sets to come on board.

$50K is not even the yearly salary of ONE just out of college developer. Hell, it's honestly barely the cost of hardware for the development environment. $50K is a DROP IN THE BUCKET of what this is going to take. Even for a tech demo.

If they already have the talent, equipment, and spec to accomplish the tech demo, $50K isn't really putting a dent into it. If they don't have that foundation to start development, $50K isn't going to get them there.

To me, it seems like this is a really low kickstarter goal where they expect the overwhelming out pouring support of the community to skyrocket them past the goal. They look at the million, to two million projects out there and go "oooh, us too".

Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but this really seems like it's just a marketing thing to get the name out with the potential to blow up and inject cash to the project. It's not actually helping to "kickstart" the project with such a low goal. The laughably low goal is just there so that they easily make it (they already have), they do the tech demo with the resources and funds already in place, and they drum up interested and excitement for the project.

Which really isn't what kickstarter is supposed to be used for.

This is also what bothers me about the Kickstarter. $50k is nothing when it comes to a project like this. It's especially strange because $50k isn't even going to go to them (assuming they funded at exactly $50k) due to fees and taxes. That's the kind of cash that these people should have on hand. Their lack of interest in investing it themselves scares me. They're also asking $100k minimum from their investors. It also indicates to me that so far they've been unable to find very many, as a single investor would blow the Kickstarter funds out of the water.

The fact that they asked to get $50k from the community in order to attract investors scares me, and it should scare everyone who is hoping Pathfinder Online will become a (worthwhile to play) reality.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Update number three confirms that the Kickstarter project is really more of a marketing tool then fundraising for a project. However, they are not the first people who done it that way. Steve Jackson's Orge board game was done on Kickstarter even though he could have easy printed it out himself without going for outside help.

What they really want is the ability to tell investors, "look at how many people want a Pathfinder MMO! We got tons of money and backers just for a TECH DEMO! Imagine how many people we can get for the actual game!"

 

[freeAgent]

Update number three confirms that the Kickstarter project is really more of a marketing tool then fundraising for a project. However, they are not the first people who done it that way. Steve Jackson's Orge board game was done on Kickstarter even though he could have easy printed it out himself without going for outside help.

What they really want is the ability to tell investors, "look at how many people want a Pathfinder MMO! We got tons of money and backers just for a TECH DEMO! Imagine how many people we can get for the actual game!"

I know that's part of the purpose, but you would think they'd have a $1 level which allows you to see the tech demo or something (since that doesn't really cost them anything). Additionally, they can use things like subscribers to their Twitter feed, Facebook page, and newsletter to show interest. As far as I'm concerned, the Kickstarter still looks primarily like a money grab without purpose or necessity. Many of the perks in this Kickstarter appeal simply to Pathfinder fans who have no intention of even playing Pathfinder Online. In my opinion, it really muddies the usefulness of the amount of money they're raising as well as the claim that these people necessarily care about Pathfinder Online.

 

[Matt James]

$50k doesn't mean this is what's needed. If they ask for more and the goal isn't reached, they get $0. I'm not inspired by yet another MMO, but I fully understand their minimum goal. Last year, I funded a documentary with a minimum of $5k. Once you reach the goal, you can press forward with asking for more, as you know you have the foundation in the bank (so-to-speak).

As for the project, I'm going to delay monetary support until I see the demo. I need to see what's going to make this MMO different from the others that are out there, and how they are going to compete for consumers. There really needs to be some amazing new concepts in order to hold a modicum of my attention.

(I could just be burned out on all of the new shiny MMOs that have come and gone).

“the Steve Jobs of MMO Marketing."

I still giggle at this.