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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 9008807" data-attributes="member: 6877472"><p>Back when I was playing Pathfinder, I got into a debate on the topic of point buy vs. rolling. He insisted that point buy was the best method to generate characters, because it's "fair".</p><p></p><p>My position, which really hasn't changed much, is that this is only half the story. <strong>Classes</strong> aren't fair, in of themselves. Now 5e isn't as bad as Pathfinder, but you can still see a little of this in play.</p><p></p><p>Some classes have one ability score that does all the work, and everything else is just gravy. Classes that tend to be in melee will probably need more Constitution than others, since they are more likely to take damage. Some classes are designed to need multiple ability scores with decent numbers.</p><p></p><p>The 3e/PF1e Monk is the absolute extreme, where you could give a Monk player all 18's and they might still struggle a bit, but I mean, look at the Wizard vs. the Cleric.</p><p></p><p>The Cleric is designed to be a melee caster who swings a weapon (usually) when they're not casting spells, since a lot of their spells are reactive in nature; you don't need to heal til you take damage, there's no reason to remove conditions until those conditions are present.</p><p></p><p>Your offensive cantrips aren't very thrilling (especially in the PHB), so you're going to want some Strength to hit things with your hammer. More if you want to wear heavy armor and be forever chasing after the Fighter in combat.</p><p></p><p>If you don't wear heavy armor, you're going to want some Dexterity.</p><p></p><p>You definitely need Constitution, since you only have a d8 Hit Die, some enemies will home in on you like a damn missile, and you might have concentration to worry about.</p><p></p><p>Your spellcasting is all Wisdom.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile, the Wizard isn't built by default to want or need melee weapons, has great attack cantrips to choose from, doesn't wear any armor, and can give themselves Leather Armor +1 with a spell slot. So they have less need for Strength, which frees up points that can be slotted into Dexterity or Constitution.</p><p></p><p>Point buy, by it's nature, produces imbalance between characters. Worse yet, it encourages dump stats more- I mean, with die rolls, there's always going to be a case that if you roll low, you know where to put that low score. But point buy can lead players to engineer their characters so that the low scores trend lower, to get a bigger "engine" for their character.</p><p></p><p>Given 5e's design, where a low score can mean constantly being ambushed, losing initiative, sitting quietly whenever it's time to negotiate with NPC's, and of course, dealing with the occasional "off" save which, by design, you might not even have a chance to succeed at, I'm not a fan of point buy.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying rolling is better or worse, since high rolls for a guy who only needs a few great stats vs. low rolls for someone who had their heart set on a class that needs several great stats is equally problematic- just that neither system is absolutely superior to the other.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 9008807, member: 6877472"] Back when I was playing Pathfinder, I got into a debate on the topic of point buy vs. rolling. He insisted that point buy was the best method to generate characters, because it's "fair". My position, which really hasn't changed much, is that this is only half the story. [B]Classes[/B] aren't fair, in of themselves. Now 5e isn't as bad as Pathfinder, but you can still see a little of this in play. Some classes have one ability score that does all the work, and everything else is just gravy. Classes that tend to be in melee will probably need more Constitution than others, since they are more likely to take damage. Some classes are designed to need multiple ability scores with decent numbers. The 3e/PF1e Monk is the absolute extreme, where you could give a Monk player all 18's and they might still struggle a bit, but I mean, look at the Wizard vs. the Cleric. The Cleric is designed to be a melee caster who swings a weapon (usually) when they're not casting spells, since a lot of their spells are reactive in nature; you don't need to heal til you take damage, there's no reason to remove conditions until those conditions are present. Your offensive cantrips aren't very thrilling (especially in the PHB), so you're going to want some Strength to hit things with your hammer. More if you want to wear heavy armor and be forever chasing after the Fighter in combat. If you don't wear heavy armor, you're going to want some Dexterity. You definitely need Constitution, since you only have a d8 Hit Die, some enemies will home in on you like a damn missile, and you might have concentration to worry about. Your spellcasting is all Wisdom. Meanwhile, the Wizard isn't built by default to want or need melee weapons, has great attack cantrips to choose from, doesn't wear any armor, and can give themselves Leather Armor +1 with a spell slot. So they have less need for Strength, which frees up points that can be slotted into Dexterity or Constitution. Point buy, by it's nature, produces imbalance between characters. Worse yet, it encourages dump stats more- I mean, with die rolls, there's always going to be a case that if you roll low, you know where to put that low score. But point buy can lead players to engineer their characters so that the low scores trend lower, to get a bigger "engine" for their character. Given 5e's design, where a low score can mean constantly being ambushed, losing initiative, sitting quietly whenever it's time to negotiate with NPC's, and of course, dealing with the occasional "off" save which, by design, you might not even have a chance to succeed at, I'm not a fan of point buy. I'm not saying rolling is better or worse, since high rolls for a guy who only needs a few great stats vs. low rolls for someone who had their heart set on a class that needs several great stats is equally problematic- just that neither system is absolutely superior to the other. [/QUOTE]
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