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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6292358" data-attributes="member: 27160">OK, let's compare this with what I responded to. I don't think they are really "in order", but I'll try to match up as best I can.These two don't seem to figure at all, except as background assertions - the first of which is unexceptional but doesn't really say much and the second of which is not universally true - for the following claims.This claim does actually match, but is not really supportable in any of its principal parts.You ascribe a reson for healing surges that seems to me to be partial and self-justifying at best, and definitely unsupportable. But this has been debated numerous times and the arguments against are well rehearsed, yet you still come back to make assertions of truth (with no clear supporting evidence) again. It's tiresome and irritating.Healing surges cannot be described as "a way of propping up people's health" - they are an representation of a character's health. An representation cannot "prop up" anything. But, again, this has been said over and over, but still I hear the same, tired old strains.As others have pointed out here, and as has been pointed out repeatedly on these forums, yes, they serve a narrative (and simulatative, in fact) purpose, and, no, they cannot be removed without significantly changing the game. They are the longer-term resource to be managed representing "health" or "physical fitness to persevere".By the way, this claim seems to be entirely missing from your "I only said" post - what happened to it?Another claim that appears in the post I reacted to, but seems to be absent from the "I only said" post. So, why are you claiming that you made one set of assertions when you actually made another?None of these, though included (in paraphrase) in your original post, were included in the quoted section that I responded to with exasperation. That was at least in part because I saw them as much more reasonable or at least new claims that deserved a more complete answer. Which I gave, in each case.I'm not talking about these options - they are just hit points with mechanical twiddles on.- Wounds/vitality: splits hps up into two pools, but it's still basically "hit points"- Damage saves/soak: means everyone has the same number of hit points, but each time you lose one you make a save (which is easier for some than others) against really losing it.- Avoidance: just increases AC/Defence instead of hit points.What I am talking about is a system where creatures don't lose "hit points" or any analogue thereof. Here's a simple outline as an example:Wounds come in four types: Light, Serious, Grievous and Mortal. Each creature has a set of "blow strength thresholds", one for each wound type. If the rolled damage equals or exceeds a threshold, the creature takes a wound of the worst type for which the threshold was equalled or exceeded. Suggested thresholds are (1 + level) times 1 for Light wounds, x2 for Serious, x4 for Grievous and x8 for Mortal. Optionally, add 1 to the multipliers for Clerics, etc. and add 2 for Fighters, etc.Wounds have the following "wound values": Light: 1; Serious: 3; Grievous: 6; Mortal: 10Any creature can have an unlimited number of wounds; there is no level at which they die from simply "too many wounds", BUT wounds cause saving throws to be required as follows:- When a wound is first taken, a creature must make a CON roll (or Fort save, if you want more heroism) with a DC equal to the value of the wound just taken, plus the total value of all wounds taken so far including the one just taken. Failing this roll means the creature passes out for 2d6 minutes.- When a Mortal wound is taken, a creature must succeed at a CON roll (or Fort save) vs a DC 10 or die instantly.- A creature that passes out as a result of wounds must roll a CON (or Fort) save upon awakening or enter shock. A creature in shock cannot take any actions and must deal with the shock as a disease that progresses very quickly indeed (e.g. roll a stage or whatever every 4 hours). The DC for the CON roll/Fort save is 10 + the total value of all wounds.Healing:To heal naturally, a creature makes an Endurance roll/CON roll/Fort save every long rest/night/week/whatever for each wound they have. DC is 13 for a Light wound, 16 for Serious, 19 for Grievous and 21 for Mortal. Success means that the wound moves down to the next lower type (Light wounds heal entirely). A roll of 1, or any failed roll that is odd on the first healing roll for any wound, means that the wound is infected. Infection is treated as a disease. Wounds don't heal at all while infected; if the infection heals the healing restarts without penalty - if the infection kills the patient then the wound does not heal unless they are returned to life, at which point infection may be an issue if the corpse was left to fester before resurrection.Healing spells cure wounds as the names imply. Cure Light Wounds simply removes a single Light wound. Cure Serious Wounds removes a single Serious or Light wound, and so on. Cure spells have no effect on wounds more serious than their level (exception, optional: a Cure spell one 'level' lower might stop bleeding and/or remove the danger of infection on the next healing roll).Healing skill can be used to give a bonus to the wound healing rolls. Failure to rest while healing will increase all healing DCs by 2 or more.As "optional extras" you could add bleeding and specific penalties for Serious and worse wounds (reduced move, attack penalties, etc., representing impairments to specific limbs and so on), but it's not strictly necessary.Attribution: the basic idea for "graphic wounds" as a system comes from the HârnMaster system. I have outlined a somewhat adjusted version, here, that is designed to fit a d20 sort of styled system, but the basics are common.Maybe it's just me, but I think that if hit points serve a positive function in the particular game being played then they are "a positive boon" rather than "a necessary evil"...</blockquote>

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