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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5710766" data-attributes="member: 2011">Ok. so here is where you lost me.It sounds like you are describing wounds (or wound points) here.You take a critical, you get wounded.But then you indicate that you use the healing surges just like always. That seems backwards, or maybe I'm just not understanding it.If the concept is really wounds, why would restoring fatigue / luck / morale result in a wound (i.e. loss of a healing surge)? Wounds should affect fatigue / luck / morale, restoration of fatigue / luck / morale shouldn't create wounds. If you are going for a simulation aspect, the mechanics should make plausible sense and not just be a rehash of 4E healing surges.I really like the idea of wound or vitality points which only rest or magic can restore. But, I don't like the idea of taking a Second Wind and gaining a wound because of it.From my perspective, Healing Surges is purely a game control mechanic and doesn't make any simulation sense at all. The designers didn't want Wands of Cure Light Wounds and even many consumables are heavily controlled via healing surges (at least until mordenkainen's magnificent emporium came out).So the concept with Healing Surges is to prevent certain player tendencies via the rules. For example, using 100 potions of healing over the course of a day, especially at higher levels.So the problem becomes, how does one in a wound point system limit the number of healing potions used in a day if the wound point system is used just like the healing surge system today? The potion cannot both cure the wound point and use the wound point. And having the potion restore luck / fatigue and replace it with a wound seems a bit plausibly strange as well.I think you should consider divorcing the two concepts. Forget about healing surges as they are used today and concentrate on a wound point system.As an example using the historic Potion of Cure Light Wounds (the name Potion of Healing is lame from a historical perspective):A Potion of Cure Light Wounds restores 10 hit points and 1 wound point. A Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds restores 20 hit points and 2 wound points. A Potion of Cure Serious Wounds restores 40 hit points and 3 wound points. A Potion of Cure Critical Wounds restores 80 hit points and 4 wound points. Wound points can only be magically healed once per day (i.e. only one potion or spell per day).By removing the concept that in combat healing of hit points requires any sort of healing surge or other resources usage, you get rid of the concept of "I give someone a potion of healing, but he is out of healing surges, so it doesn't work". Instead, it becomes "I give someone a potion of healing, but he's already had his single healing magic applied today, so it doesn't work.".This latter concept sits better. It's not some vague mechanic, instead it has a plausible explanation. Real healing magic only works so well and so often.With regard to Second Wind, it just happens. It works the exact same way as 4E, but it doesn't have a resource expense. It doesn't cost a healing surge because there are no healing surges. With regard to in combat power heals, they heal hit points. They work the exact same way as 4E, but they don't have a resource expense. They don't cost a healing surge because there are no healing surges. At the end of an encounter, the PCs take a short rest and get all of their hit points back.Throw away healing surges. They are not needed.Wounds (or wound points) take their place. You get frostbite in the mountains, you take a wound point. You get knocked unconscious, you take a wound point. You get hit with a critical, you take a wound point. You do a skill challenge fighting through the woods, and the DM wants to blow off the combat with the minor lower level foes, a failure = a wound point (the goblins got lucky).The PC can get one magical heal per day. That could be a Potion of Cure Light Wounds, or it could be a magical spell of Cure Light Wounds (works just like the potion). As PCs level up, they are going to want to use higher level potions or spells because wounds are a more serious threat.The PC can get one mundane heal per day. An extended rest with or without the Healing skill. Without = 1 wound point healed. A successful Heal check = 2 wound points healed, similar to what you've already thought about.These two aspects can then be modified based on what the DM wants for healing. If he wants healing to be often and easy, 3 magical heals a day and possibly 3 wound points healed without a heal skill, more with a heal skill.Now, here's where the reason why wound points matter comes in. For each wound point taken, the PC cannot recover 5 hit points (note: the -5 could be -10% instead). As an example, a PC with 42 hit points:0 421 372 323 274 22etc.These max hit point levels are already pre-generated on the PC's character sheet. If you are wounded, your luck / morale / endurance drops. Durability comes into play with hit points, but wounds are wounds. Toughest guy in the world breaks a rib, he's still hurting about as much as a wimpy guy breaking a rib. But the tough guy has more hit points, so he loses 5 hit points out of 50 whereas the wimpy guy loses 5 hit points out of 30. The tough guy can still fight with a broken rib longer (45 hits max remaining) than the wimpy guy (25 hits max remaining).In 4E, the only reason players even think about healing surges is when they run low or out. At that point, they cannot heal. Until that point, it's just bookkeeping.With this type of system, a single wound is a bother. Two wounds start becoming an annoyance. Three wounds and the player gets the impression that the PC is in a bit of trouble, etc. Without going heavily into a death spiral system (because the PC isn't at minuses to hit or something, he just cannot fight as long in an encounter), but lightly into a death spiral system, it makes simulation sense and is easy to understand and narrate.Looking at the numbers, even if a PC never gets knocked unconscious, that PC is going to take wound points one attack in 20 from a critical. In the first encounter of the day with 6 rounds, the Defender might get attacked about 10 times (usually less than this because of NPC attrition). There's a 50/50 chance that he'll walk out of it with a wound point. In 2 encounters, that averages a wound point. 8 encounters, 4 wounds points plus 1 more for having fewer hit points and getting knocked unconscious once.So in a many encounter day of 8 encounters, the Fighter has gotten beat up all day and taken 5 wound points. He's low level, so the Cleric can only do Cure Light Wounds and restore 1 that way. The PCs usually make their heal check, so he gets 2 more back overnight. The next day, he still has 2 wounds and is at -10 hit points. Yesterday was a real rough day.In a more typical 4 to 6 encounter day, that same Fighter might often be at 2 or 3 wound points and the Cleric will get him all patched up by morning.But without magical healing (i.e. Warlords cannot magically heal), PCs will want to rest for a few days after every few days of adventuring.Bookkeeping-wise, this is fairly comparable to 4E. Everything you need for healing and wounds is automatically written on the character sheet. The player just keeps track of hit points and wound points, just like he keeps track of hit points and healing surges today.But, it brings back a bit of the flavor of earlier editions except that Wands of Cure Light Wounds don't exist. A DM who doesn't like death spiral aspects of wound or vitality point systems can drop the -5 points of damage per wound point rule. The wound points work the same, but like with 4E healing surges, they don't matter until the PC runs out (and dies).</blockquote>

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