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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rafe" data-source="post: 4549157" data-attributes="member: 67395">Thank you for exaggerating my point(s) far into the Land of the Ludicrous.I said some effect should still occur, whether it be damage or a minor penalty.  Otherwise, you're not allowing for the attack's full effect.  If you're level 4, 4 damage is not a "nuclear bomb" and neither is a -1 attack penalty.  Please don't put words in my mouth.  If you can't address the issue without extreme exaggeration... well, enough said.My additional point is that a DM using monsters with healing surge draining abilities needs to take those abilities into consideration when building the encounter.  It's the DM's fault if 5 Whatevers devastate a party of PCs because each attack they have drains a healing surge.  That's regardless of whether or not a DM chooses to apply a "zero healing surges left" penalty or damage replacement.Regardless, let's get back on topic.  The question was raised whether or not people would simply say nothing happens when a healing surge drain is used on a character with no healing surges or whether there is a rule that compensates.  My argument is for a replacement for the healing surge drain.  Given the situation is very akin to starvation/drowning in terms of healing surge losses and what happens when a PC is at zero, I agreed with others that a -1 penalty was a good idea.  The OP can decide on whatever opinion he likes.</blockquote>