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Message: <blockquote data-quote="James McMurray" data-source="post: 4549427" data-attributes="member: 743">How about instead of adding a rule, you modify the situation? Rather than add a rule that causes victims to lose <level> hit points when they're out of surges, add environmental constraints that cause it. The creatures in the MM that steal surges, and some sample fights:Atropal: fighting the thing in the negative plane, each round the PCs must make an Endurance check with a level appropriate DC. If they fail, they lose hit points equal to their level from life draining and lack of air.Bodak: Not needing to breathe, the bodaks can activate a trap that pours smoke into the room, causing a risk of suffocation.Death Titan: already has a negative effect, so no environmental changes needed.Deathlock Wight: on the banks of an underground river, foes with no remaining healing surges can be pushed into the current with the wight's horrific visage and any push effects its allies may have. While there they have to manage to swim to shore against the current and avoid drowning. This could be very difficult if they're immobilized.Other wights could have similar encounters. Make the lead wight a Slaughter Wight and give him undead allies whose basic attacks have a push effect, and his Death Wail could have disastrous consequences.In a protracted adventure, intelligent surge draining undead could attack the party to steal their energy and keep them busy while decrepit skeletons fire flaming arrows at the wagon where the food is stored. Continual harassment by skirmisher undead (who don't need to sleep and can easily flee) will prevent long rests. This forces the party to retreat, counterattack while low on surges, or risk sleepless starvation and a slow death of a thousand cuts.</blockquote>

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