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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 4549689" data-attributes="member: 71571">Hyperbole is intended to be ludicrous.  However, bear in mind that the point itself is what you should be attacking, not the figurative speech.At level 4, the average party member has Con+27 hps or so.  Assuming average 13 Con, it's save to eyeball that at 40 hps.  It seems that 4 hps isn't a lot, and it isn't.However, what are the monsters doing for damage around that level?  What is the recommended damage for created monsters at 4th level?  Monsters hit -hard- in D&D 4th.And besides, you're NOT simply docking 4 hps.  In a game where the design is around party members being able to get hit hard, hit hard back, and then get themselves up to full for the next encounter, that 'merely four hit points' is -actually- docking their maximum hit points by 4 until the end of their adventuring day.  They do not get those back, unlike every other bit of damage the game is assumed to send them.Of course, neither are the hits they're getting from the normal monsters either.  It all adds up to a downward spiral.  Once they are out of healing surges, adding even a tiny bit of extra damage 'just cause it seems right to do so' brings them ever closer to death.Of course, once you knock them down, they -can- have someone Heal skill to have them spend a Second Wind---oh... wait... no.  They can't.  So they're helpless once they reach zero.  The last thing you want to do is speed up that process -more- just because 'It seems right.'  That's -not- a good enough reason.I agree, the DM -does- need to put all that into consideration.  But if that is the case, the DM needs to understand that making a bad situation worse is not always fun for the players.  The players are already screwed.  They're out of ways to erase the large smacks of damage they incur.  You don't -need- to make the monsters more threatening.  They've -done the job quite well.-Yes, and I disagree with others because they aren't taking into consideration how it will actually affect the game, and they aren't properly weighing the level of fun the players will have.  That's a DM's responsibility, and something he should be managing.  I'm not against setting up situations where the players lose their healing surges.  I'm against setting them up where they lose their healing surges, and now that they're helpless... NOW you turn the screws even more.  There's a certain point that players can't get out of, where they literally have zero tactical options, and once you reach that point, you're punishing players for playing your game, not challenging them.  This is Dungeons and Dragons, not Dungeons and Gimpboys.The -worst- justification for punishing the players for participating in an encounter you set up is 'Well, it just seems right that monsters get to do more on top of what they've done.' as tho stat blocks deserve some form of justice or equivocation to make up for a slight that doesn't even exist.It's 'simulationism' without actually simulating anything that actually makes sense at the expense of the player's sense of fun.All that said, a situation where the party has no healing surges and now must be -extremely careful- can be -very- fun for all concerned, if managed correctly.  But you have to be careful when you apply damage at that point.  Damage should arise from players' mistakes, not because they 'ran out of healing surges' which is the situation -you- inflicted on them.  Not to mention, it punishes Controllers and Strikers just because they decided not to roll a Defender, which is not something you have any call to do.  In fact, it's double punishment.  They'll be out of healing surges first, so they'll take damage first, and then they'll be taking a larger chunk of their hit points, as they'll have less hit points than the higher healing surge characters.  Stop inflicting punishment, simply reminding them (with an evil grin) that 'Well, good thing you're out of healing surges, cause now you don't have to lose a healing surge' is just jerkish enough to make them want to beat your little challenge.</blockquote>

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