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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1755450" data-attributes="member: 5777">As I went through above, the grapple rules are fairly unimpressive. Also, many creatures will be doing 'less' damage to a grappled foe than otherwise (only one weapon may be used, so if the creature has both a claw and bite attack it must choose which one it will use). If it likes to do other things while grappling (like defend itself) then it gets a -20 to all of its grapple checks.Improved grab is nice, but most of the time monsters with Trip are much more worriesome! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Some creatures are designed with grappling in mind and those can be pretty dangerous. However, mainly only for one on one battles (which a ring of free action makes the wearer simply immune to).Of course, we know that the wizard has to think about it slightly more, that was said from the beginning.But then, there are quite a few various items which will help render immune/resistant, and those items are good to have even when ignoring the existance of grappling.The psion might or might not have a power available which will help, the sorc is a bit stuck of course, but then I believe several people in this thread and others have said that the sorc is a bit under the curve in a few areas anyway.Psion slighter better off? sure. Much better off? nah. It isnt an incredible combat tactic to begin with the majority of the time and with a little planning it can be gotten around completely.Sure, by the 5th battle of the day (or even the third really) the wizard is probably out of options for it. Of course, if hitting 3+ different combats with grapplers is commonplace then they had better start thinking about it!So apparently we have a mage who is in his base form, has no defensive items which are useable, the opponent has at least one feat/special ability to negate the aoo, the mage fails at a couple different grapple checks, has no allies, and has spent no thought on the matter then he is in a worse position than a psion who is in the same boat. All right.I am still failing to see the awe inspiring power boost that this entails. Seems incredibly slight actually. Sortof like the difference between someone with a bow that shoots 100' vs the guy who has a bow that shoots 110'. Sure, the guy with the second bow can shoot farther whenever the need is there, but most of the time the need simply isnt there.</blockquote>

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