Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Enchanted Trinkets Complete--a hardcover book containing over 500 magic items for your D&D games!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1756151" data-attributes="member: 3146"><p>Some of us already have and the list isn't nearly as long as you seem to think it is.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Considering that half of these don't actually help much with grappling, you should be a little less condescending and a lot less confident in this:</p><p></p><p>Alter Self: Doesn't change stats, can't change type. Since there are no large humanoids in the core rules, it can't make a caster significantly better at grappling. Since natural armor doesn't apply to the touch attack, it doesn't help in that part either. I suppose it helps a little bit against improved grab creatures who have to hit the wizard's normal AC to start a grapple. Still, it's not very good anti-grapple material.</p><p></p><p>Hat of Disguise/Disguise Self: Doesn't help at all. The most it can do is deter attacks by making a character look like someone who is not a good target for grappling. However, since there are so many things that would break the illusion (illusionary armor doesn't make a sound and doesn't impede movement, etc), and the hat of disguise has a very low DC (11 as a magic item duplicating a 1st level spell) it's not even really good at that.</p><p></p><p>Other items that you mention only help against some grapples (Mirror Image for instance does nothing against Evard's Black Tentacles), are not generally useful for sor/wiz characters (while a favorite of rogues, a ring of blinking is not really well regarded by sor/wiz characters who can cast blink themself but usually elect not to since the 20% miss chance really hurts characters with limited offensive resources), or are generally weak items for characters not on the front line (the cloak of displacement is allright for a front-line fighter but is a bit of a waste on a wizard who benefits more from +5 to saves (cloak of resistance) than from a 20% miss chance).</p><p></p><p>The real list is something more like:</p><p>Polymorph</p><p>Skin of the Proteus (broken anyway and prohibitively expensive till level 16 or so)</p><p>Ring of Free Movement (prohibitively expensive until level 15 or so)</p><p>Ring of Blinking (expensive and not much more effective than dimension door and has serious drawbacks for a spellcaster)</p><p>Cape of the Montebank</p><p>Ring of Spell Storing (with Freedom of Movement, Divine Power, Divine Favor, or Righteous Might)</p><p>Freedom of Movement</p><p>Blink</p><p>Improved Blink (Complete Divine)</p><p>Dimension Door</p><p>Teleport</p><p>Greater Teleport</p><p>Ghostform (T&B)</p><p>Gaseous Form</p><p>Ectoplasmic form</p><p>Fire Shield (arguably--most DMs I know would apply the damage for grappling even though the spell doesn't explicitly do so)</p><p>Shapechange</p><p>Ring of Protection (a little)</p><p>Belt of Giant Strength (somewhat)</p><p>Iron Body (somewhat)</p><p>Grease</p><p>True Strike (quickened and eschewed, assuming your DM applies attack bonusses to grapple checks)</p><p>Tenser's Transformation</p><p>Enlarge Person</p><p>Righteous Might</p><p>Shield of Faith</p><p>Divine Favor</p><p>Divine Power</p><p>Wish</p><p></p><p>Most of these, however, are not practical when you're a sor/wiz or when you are being grappled yourself or don't help a lot/enough. That's why the discussion thus far has focussed on Rings of Free Action, contingent spells, Ghost Form, and Dimension Door: because those are the best and most practical ways to deal with grapple. Shapechange would help a lot too but it's 9th level and is generally obvious when it's active and once it's active, most enemies won't try and grapple you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Curious--most people find the 3.5 grapple rules to be quite intuitive that's probably why Nail and I see extensive use of them.</p><p></p><p>More to the point, "a simple precaution or two" does not come close to equalling the psion's ability to manifest while in a grapple. (At best, they make it slightly less likely that the caster will be grappled and most are simply side-effects of ordinary defensive activities--which the psion can be relied upon to duplicate because he has an equal interest in not being beaten to a pulp). Only the serious precautions available only at high levels like rings of free action and contingent ghostform equal the psion's ability to manifest unhindered by grapples. That's why it's a significant advantage.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 1756151, member: 3146"] Some of us already have and the list isn't nearly as long as you seem to think it is. Considering that half of these don't actually help much with grappling, you should be a little less condescending and a lot less confident in this: Alter Self: Doesn't change stats, can't change type. Since there are no large humanoids in the core rules, it can't make a caster significantly better at grappling. Since natural armor doesn't apply to the touch attack, it doesn't help in that part either. I suppose it helps a little bit against improved grab creatures who have to hit the wizard's normal AC to start a grapple. Still, it's not very good anti-grapple material. Hat of Disguise/Disguise Self: Doesn't help at all. The most it can do is deter attacks by making a character look like someone who is not a good target for grappling. However, since there are so many things that would break the illusion (illusionary armor doesn't make a sound and doesn't impede movement, etc), and the hat of disguise has a very low DC (11 as a magic item duplicating a 1st level spell) it's not even really good at that. Other items that you mention only help against some grapples (Mirror Image for instance does nothing against Evard's Black Tentacles), are not generally useful for sor/wiz characters (while a favorite of rogues, a ring of blinking is not really well regarded by sor/wiz characters who can cast blink themself but usually elect not to since the 20% miss chance really hurts characters with limited offensive resources), or are generally weak items for characters not on the front line (the cloak of displacement is allright for a front-line fighter but is a bit of a waste on a wizard who benefits more from +5 to saves (cloak of resistance) than from a 20% miss chance). The real list is something more like: Polymorph Skin of the Proteus (broken anyway and prohibitively expensive till level 16 or so) Ring of Free Movement (prohibitively expensive until level 15 or so) Ring of Blinking (expensive and not much more effective than dimension door and has serious drawbacks for a spellcaster) Cape of the Montebank Ring of Spell Storing (with Freedom of Movement, Divine Power, Divine Favor, or Righteous Might) Freedom of Movement Blink Improved Blink (Complete Divine) Dimension Door Teleport Greater Teleport Ghostform (T&B) Gaseous Form Ectoplasmic form Fire Shield (arguably--most DMs I know would apply the damage for grappling even though the spell doesn't explicitly do so) Shapechange Ring of Protection (a little) Belt of Giant Strength (somewhat) Iron Body (somewhat) Grease True Strike (quickened and eschewed, assuming your DM applies attack bonusses to grapple checks) Tenser's Transformation Enlarge Person Righteous Might Shield of Faith Divine Favor Divine Power Wish Most of these, however, are not practical when you're a sor/wiz or when you are being grappled yourself or don't help a lot/enough. That's why the discussion thus far has focussed on Rings of Free Action, contingent spells, Ghost Form, and Dimension Door: because those are the best and most practical ways to deal with grapple. Shapechange would help a lot too but it's 9th level and is generally obvious when it's active and once it's active, most enemies won't try and grapple you. Curious--most people find the 3.5 grapple rules to be quite intuitive that's probably why Nail and I see extensive use of them. More to the point, "a simple precaution or two" does not come close to equalling the psion's ability to manifest while in a grapple. (At best, they make it slightly less likely that the caster will be grappled and most are simply side-effects of ordinary defensive activities--which the psion can be relied upon to duplicate because he has an equal interest in not being beaten to a pulp). Only the serious precautions available only at high levels like rings of free action and contingent ghostform equal the psion's ability to manifest unhindered by grapples. That's why it's a significant advantage. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Heavy Artillery: Psion vs. Wizard
Top