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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1757202" data-attributes="member: 5777">The wyvern is weak at grappling, so use a stronger grappler and see how it fairs.The wyvern moves up, makes an attack (which might miss), initiates a grapple (which might be lost), it stings (this is only a single sting, there is no double sting going on), has to move into the targets square (drawing aoo's from movement. no, it is not a 5' step), then he is done for his turn. (this is all assuming that when it says 'talons' that you only have to hit with a single one, but since it is plural then one should assume that both have to hit, much like rake)Now it is everyone elses turn. The wyvern does not threaten any squares around himself, has no dex bonus to ac, and basically just made himself a big target for whoever wants to do anything.The party gets to move around however they like into flanking positions, get whatever attacks they want, possibly have full round attacks, cast whatever spells they like without fear of aoo's, etc. The fighter himself has a few options, he can try to break free, he can draw a light weapon (if he did not already have one out of course), he can try to pin the wyvern (not a bad option, if he managed to succeed then the wynvern is done for). Sure, it isnt the top of his game (assuming that he has no feats or items that help in grappling) but he is still doing quite a bit. Hardly out for the count.Ok, so now the wyvern (assuming that the fighter failed to pin him last round, which is definately a possibility) takes -20, loses one attack (whichever is holding the fighter) and gets a few attacks on those around him. At this point it is very unlikely that anyone will be grappled however. Even a 1st level mage with a str of 10 has a decent chance of beating the grapple check.It looks like the claw was the attack which you had capture the fighter in the first place so it is probably still busy holding the fighter and cannot be used during that full attack. Which means no more grappling (by reading talons as plural).Still, at this point let us assume that it does somehow have 2 foes grappled. If it wants to continue attacking anyone usefully it will keep on taking that -20 and now its attacks are even fewer. (both claws are being used, so no more improved grapples and 'free' stings, even though it likely didnt work that way to begin with)Also, once it is the fighters turn again, he may attempt to pin it. With that -20 for the wyvern he will likely succeed.I dont know what sort of rulesbending you are trying to do to say that he cannot do this. SRD:Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).So, either you are saying that you cannot escape (since they both require useing an attack and winning a grapple check) or that you can pin. They both use the same wording.At this point it is all but assured that the wyvern will be pinned (there are two seperate people who would be wise to attempt it, even the party caster would have a shot at it).Even if this wasnt true (ie, he wasnt taking -20 and instead concentrating on the guy he had grappled) then the wyvern would be in for a world of hurt. All it would be able to do would be choose a single one of its attacks to try to hit the fighter with every turn. That is a massive reduction in power.As is seen from the above however if he does take the -20 then he is in for a world of hurt once he is pinned.Sounds like a lose/lose situation for the wyvern. He would've been better off 'not' grappling.He wont, at this point he is pinned and unable to do anything. Or if not he is likely giving serious thought to leaving the scene from the amount of damage being taken. Being reduced by more than half of ones hp by now (pretty easily) has to be most unfortunate, especially with this guy trying to pin you.Unless the wyvern likes to fight to the death the battle is effectively over now.Yeah, there are lots of things that are much more effective when piled on multiples at a time. That is not exactly an issue. Melee brute? not so bad on his own, but multiple? uh oh! Single caster? not so bad on his own but multiple? uh oh! The list goes on and on, through the entire game.Nice list, lets see.The dragon is tough in pretty much any situation, so this isnt a huge issue to begin with. Nice option for him though. Of course he will be blasted for a few rounds while he takes one character and moves off with them. Probably a dead character unless they have some option open to the, psion or not.remorhaz, without his extra 8d6 damage in the gullet he would be a pushover. So, in this case, it isnt the grappling so much as the insane fire raging in his stomach. It takes him one attack and a grapple check to get someone in his mouth (he only gets one attack), then the person gets to attempt whatever they want, then another successful grapple check the next round to swallow, then they get an action, then on its next turn they take massive amounts of damage. If this is an impressive grappler then grappling is very weak indeed.Annis hag vs summoned monsters? umm.. ok. Assuming those summoned monsters werent summoned within close enough to attack anyway, or had reach of their own, then she is good at killing something that is mostly distraction anyway? (not all of them, some are definately brutes, the celestial bison comes to mind for a low level brute)Constriction guys? Ok, the mound has to hit with both attacks (full attack only), succeed in a grapple check, then, on future rounds, basically all it does is trade in its series of attacks for roughly equivalent damage (no chance of crit, grapple check might fail). Weak.Party of X vs single whatever. No good, same could be said for just about anything.Large group of grapplers vs pc's. Likely this will have a ECL that matches its difficulty (four lions gives 7, but a 7th level fighter type is likely to not be grappled in the first place and could kill one every turn, so it must be a lower level party, which means it is deadly, as it should be for being above their level).So still, except for the dragon (who is rough anyway) the psion would be either just as hosed or only slightly better off.This is still pretty off topic though. Psions are slightly better off here than wizards and sorcs, but it really wont matter much. It might be a big deal in incredibly unlikely circumstances, but the wizards versitility will come up 'much' more often as a boon than this tidbit will arise.</blockquote>

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