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<blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 1617988" data-attributes="member: 141">Just like a wizard 3 levels lower.&nbsp; Note that while they are proficient in armor, they still suffer from arcane spell failure.&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; Compare with a Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Arcane Trickster 10- which also has a caster level of 17, but has +7d6 sneak attack damage.I don't really understand this question.&nbsp; How and where do rogues and wizards train?&nbsp; I agree with you about the connotations of Hedge Wizard- a druidic wizard or arcane druid or something.&nbsp; But I'm not sure that Arcane Thief works- while this class is definitely arcane, it is at most 1/4 thief.&nbsp; Some of the thief abilities are shared by other core classes (uncanny dodge, evasion), and there are a few druid/ranger and pure monk abilities in there as well. It is actually intended to feed into the Ur-Priest class, so cultist or arcane cultist might be better.&nbsp; Instead of Knowledge (all), maybe specify Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (planes).&nbsp; It's a base class, so there are no pre-reqs.&nbsp; High intelligence is definitely a plus; they don't have a whole lot of skill points, so they need the bonus points badly.&nbsp; And of course they need intelligence to pump their spells.&nbsp; An intelligence of 12 and a high wisdom are best if they intend to go Ur-Priest.I should point out that the Rogue 2/Wizard 2/Ranger 1 prefix won't qualify you for Ur-Priest if you calculate the base save bonuses by the book.&nbsp; i.e. if you do the following, you don't get the +3 fort save:[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Fort&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ref&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; WillRogue 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 0Wizard 2&nbsp;&nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3Ranger 1&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 0-----------------------------------------Total&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3[/code]But using fractional save progressions (as suggested in Unearthed Arcana) and rounding down *after* adding (instead of before), you get the following:[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Fort&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ref&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; WillRogue 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 2/3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2/3Wizard 2&nbsp;&nbsp; 2/3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2/3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3Ranger 1&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2 1/2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1/3-----------------------------------------Total&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3 5/6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6 1/6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4[/code]The Hedge Wizard gets 3 good saves, which at 5th level is +4, +4, +4.&nbsp; Which is closer to the alternative way of calculating saves.A valid prefix according to the standard way of calculating saves would be Wizard 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 3.&nbsp; This is more thiefly and less arcane than the version I used, but Arcane Thief would be a good description of the combo. Thanks for the comments.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cheiromancer, post: 1617988, member: 141"] Just like a wizard 3 levels lower. Note that while they are proficient in armor, they still suffer from arcane spell failure. Really? Compare with a Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Arcane Trickster 10- which also has a caster level of 17, but has +7d6 sneak attack damage. I don't really understand this question. How and where do rogues and wizards train? I agree with you about the connotations of Hedge Wizard- a druidic wizard or arcane druid or something. But I'm not sure that Arcane Thief works- while this class is definitely arcane, it is at most 1/4 thief. Some of the thief abilities are shared by other core classes (uncanny dodge, evasion), and there are a few druid/ranger and pure monk abilities in there as well. It is actually intended to feed into the Ur-Priest class, so cultist or arcane cultist might be better. Instead of Knowledge (all), maybe specify Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (planes). It's a base class, so there are no pre-reqs. High intelligence is definitely a plus; they don't have a whole lot of skill points, so they need the bonus points badly. And of course they need intelligence to pump their spells. An intelligence of 12 and a high wisdom are best if they intend to go Ur-Priest. I should point out that the Rogue 2/Wizard 2/Ranger 1 prefix won't qualify you for Ur-Priest if you calculate the base save bonuses by the book. i.e. if you do the following, you don't get the +3 fort save: [code] Fort Ref Will Rogue 2 0 3 0 Wizard 2 0 0 3 Ranger 1 2 2 0 ----------------------------------------- Total 2 5 3[/code] But using fractional save progressions (as suggested in Unearthed Arcana) and rounding down *after* adding (instead of before), you get the following: [code] Fort Ref Will Rogue 2 2/3 3 2/3 Wizard 2 2/3 2/3 3 Ranger 1 2 1/2 2 1/2 1/3 ----------------------------------------- Total 3 5/6 6 1/6 4[/code] The Hedge Wizard gets 3 good saves, which at 5th level is +4, +4, +4. Which is closer to the alternative way of calculating saves. A valid prefix according to the standard way of calculating saves would be Wizard 1/Ranger 1/Rogue 3. This is more thiefly and less arcane than the version I used, but Arcane Thief would be a good description of the combo. Thanks for the comments. [/QUOTE]

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