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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Willie the Duck" data-source="post: 9700291" data-attributes="member: 6799660">I see where we are talking at cross purposes. The text reads:"Heighten SpellCost: 2 Sorcery PointsWhen you cast a spell that forces a creature to make a saving throw, you can spend 2 Sorcery Points to give one target of the spell Disadvantage on saves against the spell."I was focusing on the "a target" part, you were focused on the lack of "its first" before saving throw (present in the 2014 version). Reassessing, it looks like these are orthogonal points, so I don't see them directly conflicting.Regarding the point about subsequent saves, well, it's certainly not wrong. It is an increase in the power. I'm uncertain on whether I think it is significant. This is kind of like the initial assessments of Elven Accuracy when it came out -- one needs to take into account the marginality of the increase. The spell ability in question has to be already powerful for making it more likely to land/stick a significant tactical boon, yet at the same time it means the normal affect/chance is the high baseline against which we are comparing. We're also comparing to the 2014 version of the ability, which already boosted the first-round save of the effect. The new version of the ability only increases the likelihood of the second and subsequent rounds being effective. The marginal utility of second-round shutdown (contingent on the first) isn't as quantifiable as the DPR calculations for EA, but they are at least straightforward and incremental (the class ability doesn't allow one to do something wholly new), so it is going to come down to a 'how much is enough to be significant?' question.It's more potent, by virtue of being a bit cheaper and having subsequent-round saves more likely to fail, but I'm nor sure I see the more versatile aspect. Are there spells, builds, or strategies that the ability would not have applied to before that it qualifies for now?Fear, to my previous point, only for one creature. Sleep now has a save at all, so that is definitely a new option. Counterspell, as you mentioned before, is a new option. That's one of the larger changes to how the spell might get used (although with the countered spell no longer being expended and general changes to monster spellcasting, the total utility of Counterspell becomes a massive debate in and of itself).Yes, at levels 7+, while using your innate sorcery, and spending sorcery points to match, you can have one of the targets of a multi-target spell make (all of) their saves for the spell at disadvantage. This again is a very real boost and I do not want to dismiss it. It is, however, again a very marginal increase with significant limitations. These do not negate that it is a boost. I am simply not convinced that it is a groundbreaking or watershed change, such that I would agree with statements like "most powerful today."The sorcerer is a good class, and a fun one. It saw some enhancement with the 2024 update. I still think Fighters and Monks saw more enhancement with the update, and I hesitate to call out any class as most powerful (even just amongst the full casters, I think if flip-flops based on to what level a group typically plays).</blockquote>

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