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<blockquote data-quote="Thanee" data-source="post: 1528895" data-attributes="member: 478">I think the PHB is very official (more official than the sage actually <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />).&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; I just stated, what the PHB says about that issue.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; It says: &quot;Question answered, the rest is up to you.&quot; That's quite a difference.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;You obviously have a problem with the way Heighten Spell works (in my opinion, which I am pretty sure of correlates with the way it is meant to work officially).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; If you don't like it... change it! That's what I do as well, when I do not like stuff.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; You mean the balance question? Hmm... I find it strange, if heighten costs something if applied alone, but not if it is applied in addition to other metamagic feats (unlike any other metamagic feat).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;About the balance... as a sorcerer (or any other character that actively uses metamagic... sorcerers are simply the most prominent metamagic users) it would make Heighten Spell not only a very good feat, but certainly a no-brainer choice, it's a considerable effect (increased save DC) for free (cost of the feat choice not included).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;It's probably not so bad, that it could be called unbalancing, since stacking metamagic is usually rather pointless in 3.5 (see below).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Only if you ignore the rule, that changes in level are cumulative, then it is legal. Otherwise, it is not.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; See post #45 above for further explanation.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;If you don't think that Heighten Spell changes the spell level, then I really cannot help you. It's stated quite clearly in the feat description (first sentence).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I don't think there is any.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; But that is besides the point of metamagic.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Metamagic makes spells of lower levels more useful at higher levels. It doesn't claim to make spells equally useful compared to other spells of the higher level. Applying single metamagic feats sometimes produces a result more desireable to that of regular spells of the modified spell level, however.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Naturally, this is most important for spellcasters with a very limited spell selection (sorcerers).&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Combining metamagic only gives diminishing returns, since all metamagic is only applied to the base level. If you metamagic a 5th level spell it will work off the full 5 levels worth of spell power. If you metamagic a metamagicked (not counting feats, that do not change the spell level, obviously) 5th level spell it will only work off the 0-4 levels worth of spell power, which is less. So the spell with only one metamagic feat applied is obviously more powerful.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;The baseline is, that applying multiple metamagic feats to a single spell is in almost all cases a suboptimal choice, regardless of combination.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; The only reason to do so is, that you do not know a spell of the modified spell level, which can produce the desired result.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;For a sorcerer, this is a very common situation, which is why metamagic is so good for sorcerers, not because it makes their spells more powerful, but because it gives them more choice of high level spell effects.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Bye&nbsp; &nbsp; Thanee</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Thanee, post: 1528895, member: 478"] I think the PHB is very official (more official than the sage actually ;)). I just stated, what the PHB says about that issue. It says: "Question answered, the rest is up to you." That's quite a difference. You obviously have a problem with the way Heighten Spell works (in my opinion, which I am pretty sure of correlates with the way it is meant to work officially). If you don't like it... change it! That's what I do as well, when I do not like stuff. You mean the balance question? Hmm... I find it strange, if heighten costs something if applied alone, but not if it is applied in addition to other metamagic feats (unlike any other metamagic feat). About the balance... as a sorcerer (or any other character that actively uses metamagic... sorcerers are simply the most prominent metamagic users) it would make Heighten Spell not only a very good feat, but certainly a no-brainer choice, it's a considerable effect (increased save DC) for free (cost of the feat choice not included). It's probably not so bad, that it could be called unbalancing, since stacking metamagic is usually rather pointless in 3.5 (see below). Only if you ignore the rule, that changes in level are cumulative, then it is legal. Otherwise, it is not. See post #45 above for further explanation. If you don't think that Heighten Spell changes the spell level, then I really cannot help you. It's stated quite clearly in the feat description (first sentence). I don't think there is any. But that is besides the point of metamagic. Metamagic makes spells of lower levels more useful at higher levels. It doesn't claim to make spells equally useful compared to other spells of the higher level. Applying single metamagic feats sometimes produces a result more desireable to that of regular spells of the modified spell level, however. Naturally, this is most important for spellcasters with a very limited spell selection (sorcerers). Combining metamagic only gives diminishing returns, since all metamagic is only applied to the base level. If you metamagic a 5th level spell it will work off the full 5 levels worth of spell power. If you metamagic a metamagicked (not counting feats, that do not change the spell level, obviously) 5th level spell it will only work off the 0-4 levels worth of spell power, which is less. So the spell with only one metamagic feat applied is obviously more powerful. The baseline is, that applying multiple metamagic feats to a single spell is in almost all cases a suboptimal choice, regardless of combination. The only reason to do so is, that you do not know a spell of the modified spell level, which can produce the desired result. For a sorcerer, this is a very common situation, which is why metamagic is so good for sorcerers, not because it makes their spells more powerful, but because it gives them more choice of high level spell effects. Bye Thanee [/QUOTE]

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