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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3661704" data-attributes="member: 4937">You are getting somewhere to the heart of my problem answering the question.&nbsp; I don't think that the Helm of Opposite Alignment was intended to be an object which supports a robust discussion of spirituality, morality, and social consequence.&nbsp; It was originally a gamist device with I think light hearted intent.&nbsp; And, like so many of the spells and items in D&amp;D, its power is judged by its game balance rather than its impact on the universe or its complexity.&nbsp;&nbsp; For example, spells like 'magic mouth', 'comprehend languages', and 'unseen servant' actually do things that are objectively harder than blowing up a room, but they are rated as low level spells because superficially they effect game balance less than for example a fireball.&nbsp; Or at least, they effect the game balance of the game that is assumed will by played by social convention less than a fireball.So among the problems I have in this discussion is some elements of the item seem to contridict my understanding of the actual event.&nbsp; I think changing an alignment is far beyond the power of a simple mortal ability, because its a far more subtle thing than a mere compulsion (making someone hungry or angry for instance).&nbsp; Even in the quoted text you desribe, you ought to see a contridiction.&nbsp; The thing can be done by a mere 4th level spell, but it can only be undone by not only a 9th level spell but 9th level spells which are presumed to involve acts of raw possibly beyond mortal power.&nbsp; This might make some sense if the 4th level spell did something wholly destructive, but by no understanding of destructiveness can we explain what a helm of opposite alignment does.&nbsp; It not only destroys, but it puts something back in its place.&nbsp; This act of creation is objectively 'hard', and ought to be little less hard than making or destroying souls in the first place.&nbsp; It seems the province of the divine, not the province of a mere curse.&nbsp; 'May you thirst', sure.&nbsp; 'May you who are pure be wicked.'&nbsp; No, a curse can't do that IMO.&nbsp; If it could, the three wierd sisters wouldn't have needed someone like MacBeth.&nbsp; They could have just as easily cursed Duncan.&nbsp; IMO, if it takes a Wish or a Miracle to undo it, it implies that it should have required a Wish or Miracle to do it in the first place.&nbsp; The item in question is radically underpriced, both in its conception of what actually takes place and the power unleashed, and its social consequence were such a power to be actually common.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 3661704, member: 4937"] You are getting somewhere to the heart of my problem answering the question. I don't think that the Helm of Opposite Alignment was intended to be an object which supports a robust discussion of spirituality, morality, and social consequence. It was originally a gamist device with I think light hearted intent. And, like so many of the spells and items in D&D, its power is judged by its game balance rather than its impact on the universe or its complexity. For example, spells like 'magic mouth', 'comprehend languages', and 'unseen servant' actually do things that are objectively harder than blowing up a room, but they are rated as low level spells because superficially they effect game balance less than for example a fireball. Or at least, they effect the game balance of the game that is assumed will by played by social convention less than a fireball. So among the problems I have in this discussion is some elements of the item seem to contridict my understanding of the actual event. I think changing an alignment is far beyond the power of a simple mortal ability, because its a far more subtle thing than a mere compulsion (making someone hungry or angry for instance). Even in the quoted text you desribe, you ought to see a contridiction. The thing can be done by a mere 4th level spell, but it can only be undone by not only a 9th level spell but 9th level spells which are presumed to involve acts of raw possibly beyond mortal power. This might make some sense if the 4th level spell did something wholly destructive, but by no understanding of destructiveness can we explain what a helm of opposite alignment does. It not only destroys, but it puts something back in its place. This act of creation is objectively 'hard', and ought to be little less hard than making or destroying souls in the first place. It seems the province of the divine, not the province of a mere curse. 'May you thirst', sure. 'May you who are pure be wicked.' No, a curse can't do that IMO. If it could, the three wierd sisters wouldn't have needed someone like MacBeth. They could have just as easily cursed Duncan. IMO, if it takes a Wish or a Miracle to undo it, it implies that it should have required a Wish or Miracle to do it in the first place. The item in question is radically underpriced, both in its conception of what actually takes place and the power unleashed, and its social consequence were such a power to be actually common. [/QUOTE]

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