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Help balancing a Humanoid Dragon class
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<blockquote data-quote="DragonLordAcar" data-source="post: 8197875" data-attributes="member: 7029653"><p>I'm assuming level 6+ spells do not regain on a short rest, as per normal warlock spell progression?</p><p>I'm assuming that you do not get the Flexible Casting aspect of the sorceror's Font of Magic ability?</p><p></p><p>This is effectively granting additional attacks. It should be at level 5 or 6 at least, or higher if it allows combining cantrips, or even spells with additional attacks.</p><p>I'd say stick with quickened spell metamagic instead.</p><p></p><p>I'm not sure I'm reading this right? Is this basically removing the limited spells known restriction that you have from using the warlock spell progression?</p><p></p><p>You should probably not get this at level 5 if you're also able to combine spells and scaling cantrips with attacks.</p><p>What is with the force damage? Its not generally thought of as something specifically draconic?</p><p></p><p>Hang on. There are 8 other spell lists. You're saying the class suddenly gets to learn 8 additional spells? And from lists that it is usually restricted from?</p><p>This makes the class better than the Fighter at one of the Fighter's unique strengths. In addition to being a full-progression, short-rest caster with extra spells?</p><p></p><p>I think that you may be trying to do too much in a single class. You should probably decide on whether you want to be a more combat-focused, or spellcaster-focused character, and design the class around that rather than being best at both.</p><p>If you are combat-focused, compare with maybe Eldritch Knight. If caster-focused, compare with draconic sorceror. If your character is significantly more powerful than a normal PC of that class at any particular level, then that is an indication of a problem.</p></blockquote><p></p><p>For race confusion, this is assuming that your base race is whatever dragon (true or not but still must be sentient) or non-humanoid half-dragon (still needs to be sentient). Dragonborn are not an applicable race.</p><p></p><p>You keep mental stats (thank you for pointing this out). I personally used the base mental scores for a dragon -2 or -3 (ending in an even number) and threw a single d6 for some variation. For physical stats, I rolled as a normal PC. Racial modifiers are +1 Str and Con (just chose the two highest stats for the dragon which should be Str and Con for most if not all dragons).</p><p></p><p>After looking it up, true dragons have Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha save proficiency. If the base creature has different ones, use those instead.</p><p></p><p>If a dragon is stuck in human form, they aren't stupid and will learn how to properly fight with their new forms.</p><p></p><p>Good suggestion. Perhaps I should make it simple weapons and two martial weapons of choice. This class was based on a 5e conversion for Pathfinder's Magus which did have both proficiencies. It may be my own personal bias, but a shield should not require much if any training to use properly and it can limit spell casting as it requires one hand to use. To work around this requires a feat or spending gold on one specific shield. As for the natural weapons, they come later but the idea is the dragon is now almost completely a humanoid in appearance and function. Most humanoids don't have claws but if they take a feat that gives them that because it is a draconic feat, it is like awakening part of their bloodline like Sorcerers do.</p><p></p><p>This again goes back to the base dragon race. If you were previously an adult gold dragon, your fire immunity becomes fire resistance and your blindsight 60ft becomes 30ft.</p><p></p><p>Fair. I wanted something that kept the dragon's elemental flair but made part of the damage reliable vs. resistance and immunity. Should I just remove the force damage and give the damage dice to the base element or just say that half the damage can't be resisted?</p><p></p><p>For the spell progression, I am only taking the spell slots and spells known (including cantrips) into account. This keeps the dragon from using lots of high-level spells in a single combat but allows them to use them more often if they take the time to recharge. They still have their firepower but their magazine was shrunk.</p><p></p><p>Yes. I use Sorcery Points as they are already part of 5e and I do add metamagic so it would be confusing to use a new pool system. I removed the spell conversion as I wanted to keep the feeling of limited high-level spellcasting.</p><p></p><p>This is a Pathfinder carryover with how they use the Magus as a spellsword. Should I increase the penalty?</p><p></p><p>The idea is you pay a lot of gold and time to learn new spells and a dragon is so intelligent and meticulous that they can be their won spellbook. They still can't learn conflicting spells like how a gold dragon can't cast Cone of Cold. While they can learn many spells, if the DM does not hand out spellbook or limits downtime, they will not learn many if any spells this way. This still does not allow the casting of these spells like a wizard or other caster class. They still have limited spell slots. Jut a larger variety to choose from.</p><p></p><p>Perhaps, but once the dragon runs out of its one spell at this level (with a max of 3 at higher levels), casting a cantrip will be their only other damage aside from their 1/turn attack. The class also promotes a spellsword. I could swap abilities around and give it at Lv7-10.</p><p></p><p>The idea was that they can have some resistance to pure magical force and force damage is so rare this it really is not much of a buff. If I need to remove it I can as it is not absolutely necessary. I just taught it was cool.</p><p></p><p>You raise a very good point. Probably should limit it to 2 spells from other lists. Learning 8 spells at any level is too powerful. I don't know what I was thinking.</p><p></p><p>Probably should do what I should do to the other extra attack and place it at a later level. Lv15-17 probably but drop it if necessary. 2 elementally enhanced attacks with a spell as a bonus action every turn is probably enough damage each round.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="DragonLordAcar, post: 8197875, member: 7029653"] I'm assuming level 6+ spells do not regain on a short rest, as per normal warlock spell progression? I'm assuming that you do not get the Flexible Casting aspect of the sorceror's Font of Magic ability? This is effectively granting additional attacks. It should be at level 5 or 6 at least, or higher if it allows combining cantrips, or even spells with additional attacks. I'd say stick with quickened spell metamagic instead. I'm not sure I'm reading this right? Is this basically removing the limited spells known restriction that you have from using the warlock spell progression? You should probably not get this at level 5 if you're also able to combine spells and scaling cantrips with attacks. What is with the force damage? Its not generally thought of as something specifically draconic? Hang on. There are 8 other spell lists. You're saying the class suddenly gets to learn 8 additional spells? And from lists that it is usually restricted from? This makes the class better than the Fighter at one of the Fighter's unique strengths. In addition to being a full-progression, short-rest caster with extra spells? I think that you may be trying to do too much in a single class. You should probably decide on whether you want to be a more combat-focused, or spellcaster-focused character, and design the class around that rather than being best at both. If you are combat-focused, compare with maybe Eldritch Knight. If caster-focused, compare with draconic sorceror. If your character is significantly more powerful than a normal PC of that class at any particular level, then that is an indication of a problem.[/QUOTE] For race confusion, this is assuming that your base race is whatever dragon (true or not but still must be sentient) or non-humanoid half-dragon (still needs to be sentient). Dragonborn are not an applicable race. You keep mental stats (thank you for pointing this out). I personally used the base mental scores for a dragon -2 or -3 (ending in an even number) and threw a single d6 for some variation. For physical stats, I rolled as a normal PC. Racial modifiers are +1 Str and Con (just chose the two highest stats for the dragon which should be Str and Con for most if not all dragons). After looking it up, true dragons have Dex, Con, Wis, and Cha save proficiency. If the base creature has different ones, use those instead. If a dragon is stuck in human form, they aren't stupid and will learn how to properly fight with their new forms. Good suggestion. Perhaps I should make it simple weapons and two martial weapons of choice. This class was based on a 5e conversion for Pathfinder's Magus which did have both proficiencies. It may be my own personal bias, but a shield should not require much if any training to use properly and it can limit spell casting as it requires one hand to use. To work around this requires a feat or spending gold on one specific shield. As for the natural weapons, they come later but the idea is the dragon is now almost completely a humanoid in appearance and function. Most humanoids don't have claws but if they take a feat that gives them that because it is a draconic feat, it is like awakening part of their bloodline like Sorcerers do. This again goes back to the base dragon race. If you were previously an adult gold dragon, your fire immunity becomes fire resistance and your blindsight 60ft becomes 30ft. Fair. I wanted something that kept the dragon's elemental flair but made part of the damage reliable vs. resistance and immunity. Should I just remove the force damage and give the damage dice to the base element or just say that half the damage can't be resisted? For the spell progression, I am only taking the spell slots and spells known (including cantrips) into account. This keeps the dragon from using lots of high-level spells in a single combat but allows them to use them more often if they take the time to recharge. They still have their firepower but their magazine was shrunk. Yes. I use Sorcery Points as they are already part of 5e and I do add metamagic so it would be confusing to use a new pool system. I removed the spell conversion as I wanted to keep the feeling of limited high-level spellcasting. This is a Pathfinder carryover with how they use the Magus as a spellsword. Should I increase the penalty? The idea is you pay a lot of gold and time to learn new spells and a dragon is so intelligent and meticulous that they can be their won spellbook. They still can't learn conflicting spells like how a gold dragon can't cast Cone of Cold. While they can learn many spells, if the DM does not hand out spellbook or limits downtime, they will not learn many if any spells this way. This still does not allow the casting of these spells like a wizard or other caster class. They still have limited spell slots. Jut a larger variety to choose from. Perhaps, but once the dragon runs out of its one spell at this level (with a max of 3 at higher levels), casting a cantrip will be their only other damage aside from their 1/turn attack. The class also promotes a spellsword. I could swap abilities around and give it at Lv7-10. The idea was that they can have some resistance to pure magical force and force damage is so rare this it really is not much of a buff. If I need to remove it I can as it is not absolutely necessary. I just taught it was cool. You raise a very good point. Probably should limit it to 2 spells from other lists. Learning 8 spells at any level is too powerful. I don't know what I was thinking. Probably should do what I should do to the other extra attack and place it at a later level. Lv15-17 probably but drop it if necessary. 2 elementally enhanced attacks with a spell as a bonus action every turn is probably enough damage each round. [/QUOTE]
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