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<blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 5122980" data-attributes="member: 32164">I kicked this around a little bit myself, mostly as a thought experiment. You can get a certain amount of insight into it (without entirely answering the question) by looking back at 3e, Star Wars Saga, and d20 Modern in addition to 4e.Firstly, recognize that many 3e class features were turned into Talents in other systems. Many things that were feats right up through Star Wars Saga Edition were turned into powers come 4e (like Cleave). And some class features (or talents) were even &quot;downgraded&quot; to feats (like Evasion). And that's before you get into Skill Powers and other things. So sorting it out is something of a holy mess.The basic rule in 4e seems to be that feats enhance or alter class features (including powers), whereas powers actually give you new options. Even the Skill Power feat doesn't break this as, IIRC, it allows you to replace one of your existing utility powers. The sole exception is the Hybrid Talent feat, which lets you pick up a class feature you didn't previously have. Talent trees were a nice idea, but they're basically a way of leveling powers without saying specifically &quot;this ability is appropriate come 9th level.&quot; So while I like the Talent system, I find it clunky next to powers. Explicit levels make way more sense as a way of balancing than feat trees.On the other hand, if you want to give characters more options, you could make all powers things you get via talents. You start with your at-wills and gain other powers by spending a talent. If you silo them into combat and utility options, you've still got basically the 4e system. You can turn talents into utility powers or feats, depending on what they do.Alternatively, you can eliminate the utility powers and just turn them all into talents. Then talent trees replace the utility powers in the character's options deck. But some of the powers (like any &quot;daily&quot; utilities) would probably have to be downgraded in order for that to work.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="JohnSnow, post: 5122980, member: 32164"] I kicked this around a little bit myself, mostly as a thought experiment. You can get a certain amount of insight into it (without entirely answering the question) by looking back at 3e, [i]Star Wars Saga[/i], and [i]d20 Modern[/i] in addition to 4e. Firstly, recognize that many 3e class features were turned into Talents in other systems. Many things that were feats right up through Star Wars Saga Edition were turned into powers come 4e (like Cleave). And some class features (or talents) were even "downgraded" to feats (like Evasion). And that's before you get into Skill Powers and other things. So sorting it out is something of a holy mess. The basic rule in 4e seems to be that feats enhance or alter class features (including powers), whereas powers actually give you [i]new[/i] options. Even the Skill Power feat doesn't break this as, IIRC, it allows you to replace one of your existing utility powers. The sole exception is the Hybrid Talent feat, which lets you pick up a class feature you didn't previously have. Talent trees were a nice idea, but they're basically a way of leveling powers without saying specifically "this ability is appropriate come 9th level." So while I like the Talent system, I find it clunky next to powers. Explicit levels make way more sense as a way of balancing than feat trees. On the other hand, if you want to give characters more options, you could make all powers things you get via talents. You start with your at-wills and gain other powers by spending a talent. If you silo them into combat and utility options, you've still got basically the 4e system. You can turn talents into utility powers or feats, depending on what they do. Alternatively, you can eliminate the utility powers and just turn them all into talents. Then talent trees replace the utility powers in the character's options deck. But some of the powers (like any "daily" utilities) would probably have to be downgraded in order for that to work. [/QUOTE]

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