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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DarcKnyght" data-source="post: 719389" data-attributes="member: 10208">Alrighty, now it feels like we are on track. I wanted to know the reasoning behind the answer in the FAQ not just a copy of what I had already read. Imagine your a student and you have just read a passage but do not understand why it was written in that manner. You ask the teacher about it and they read the passage to you word for word of what you just read and say there you go glad I could help. Thats what it felt like thats all. The crack about France aside I am glad to be engaged in actual dialog on the subject. Ok cool but, why does it say in the book "and turn the damage into lethal damage" in the same sentence as using brawl with brass knuckles? That is were I am getting tripped up. It makes it sound very much like if you want to use Brass knuckles and you have Brawl than you can do 1d6+1 lethal, now you could not use this with knockout punch but you could still do the brawl as lethal damage. As for Brawl with CMA I have revised my thinking back to what I had originally thought which is to say they are 2 diffent fighting styles so there effects do not stack. You may get +1 to hit with brawl but you provoke attacks of opp and can't use them. With CMA you do not get the +1 because you are actively not provoking Attacks of opp and can make them. That being said though I see nothing that prevents someone with CMA using knockout punch as long as they have taken Brawl and are doing non-lethal dam. To begin with it is WEAKER than the brawl characters especially with Improved Brawl. A martial artist character will not do 1d8 dam until 4th level of the advanced class and then it tops out at 1d10. The Brawling character will be able to do 1d8 at 4th level within the basic classes.Dareoon I just don't see the imbalance help me. My third level Strong hero has Brawl at first level and say Two Weapon Fighting (always good for that second attack) at second I take Weapon Focus as a bonus feat. At third level I take knockout punch. I have my first 2 talents Melee Smash and Improved Melee Smash for +2 damage. I then slip on a pair of brass knuckles. I have got +2 to hit with Brawl & Weapon Focus and for damage I can now do: (1d6 +1 for brass knuckles +strength bonus +2 Melee Smash) x2  = around 12 Minimal if counting +2 str bonus. But averaging 16 points of damage. Then at 4th I open it up with Improved Brawl. (Now averaging 18 points of damage, who am I not knocking out at this point or at least dazing)?No look at it the other way. The character who is training to be a Martial Artist starts out as a Strong hero as well (just to get there as fast as possible) At first level I take CMA and again Two Weapon Fighting. At second level this character will also take Weapon Focus Unarmed. At third level I have to take DMA to get into my advanced class. Now at third level my unarmed punches do +1 to hit for weapon focus and then (1d4 +[no plus for Brass knuckles apparently they do not work for this character] + Str bonus + 2 melee smash) = 5 minimal or 8 maximum unless a crit hit. At 4th level I get my advanced class and now do (1d6 +2 Str + 2 Melee Smash) now averaging 7 points of Damage. Who exactlly am I knocking out? AND at 6th level forget about it! The straight Strong hero gets Improved Knockout Punch and lets say street fighting. woa as Neo would say DAM: (1d8 +1 brass knuckles +2 Str +3 Melee Smash) x3 + 1d4 = 22 points of damage minimal and 46 points maximum.  Sweet I am knocking out the Gods <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> (Being silly there)And what about out intrepid Martial Artist? At 6th level he has not even raised his damage capacity to 1d8 yet (that will be next level). All I am saying is I just do not see why the Martial Artist can not benifit from Knockout Punch as well. If he did at 6th level he would still only be doing (1d6 +2 Str +2 Melee Smash) x3 = 15 points of minimal damage and 30 points of Maximum damage. Compare the two. And a 6th level Stong Hero is not?</blockquote>

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