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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DarcKnyght" data-source="post: 722579" data-attributes="member: 10208">Hey Mistwell, thanks for the dialog on this topic. No you do not take the -4 penalty when using CMA to do non-lethal dam. I agree Dareoon that if the players knock everyone out on the first hit, (It hasn't been the case) then it would get dull very quick but the 3rd level normal characters with just Brawl & Knockout punch can almost already do that. The Martial Art characters (which for me is all about being specialized in unarmed combat) don't have nearly the same chance to knockout opponents. It sort of takes the wind out of the sails of the character that wants to be the cool unarmed fighter guy.I like the new system of unarmed fighting better than subdual dam but my players do not like to have to resort to lethal dam, just to keep up with the brawling characters. The best fix for us is to allow CMA players to use Knockout punch when they are doing non-lethal dam. Granted they have to burn a feat (Brawl) to get it, but that is cool because it balances out later when they do not need Improved Knockout Punch because they get the x3 crit from Adavnced CMA. (Keep in mind this is still balanced becuase the pre-req is BaB +8 & Improved Knockout Punch is +6.Well, the best thing if you are actually interested in this topic is to just give it a try. Not in a full game situation if you do not want to, but as a play test. Make a couple of characters, give one CMA using character Knockout Punch, one without, and a brawling character with knockout punch. Keep them all equal levels (at any maxed out, tweaked out level you want or low level minimal stats and stuff) and see who can do what. Not necessarly against each other but as a team that has to infiltrate in secret into a guarded place from 3 different entry points.We ran this scenerio and many other like it with varing degrees of characters. (We ALWAYS extensively play test any potential changes, though quite frankly we don't really have any except for the very few like this)(I am not one for changing things as they are written but in this case, we are not. It is just an interpretation of what is already written in the book.) <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />In fact we like testing the game as much as playing it. We found no flaws or off balances with allowing CMA users access to Knockout Punch.The other BIG problem my players have with resorting to lethal dam to get a bad guy knocked out is that if you can not drop him in your first attack he can raise an alarm. With knockout punch, you get him knocked out or dazed and can then get in without rasing the alarm.Just my 2 cents and thank you Dareoon for dialog on this topic as well.</blockquote>

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