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<blockquote data-quote="two" data-source="post: 1696579" data-attributes="member: 9002">Spring attack trapI still feel like spring attack is a trap for a monk.The &quot;spring in/stun monster/then stay if it is stunned or spring back out if it is not&quot; sounds great on paper.&nbsp; Sounds solid.&nbsp; But...But in play, the Monk's Stunning Fist DC goes up a lot slower than enemy fort saves.&nbsp; Most CR8, 9+ monsters that can be stunned in the first place have +11 or +12 to their fort save.&nbsp; Meaning, that the monk has to first HIT the monster, and then the monster needs to fail the save.&nbsp; The probablily of that (vs. a DC18 stunning fist, for example) is what?&nbsp; Let's say the monk needs a &quot;12&quot; to hit the AC, and the monster needs to roll lower than a &quot;7&quot; to fail.&nbsp; That's 8/20 chances, follows by 6/20 chances, which is 12% chance that it will work, roughly.Yes, this is against &quot;not bad&quot; fort save monsters.&nbsp; Because, if you are attacking something with a bad fort save (rogue, wizard, rogue, some rare types of monsters) the monk does not NEED to spring in and stun and leave.&nbsp; Typically, the monk needs to rush in a grapple/or full attack.&nbsp; In other words, the time when Spring Attack is must useful (vs. a scary melee threat) is precisely the time when stunning first is least useful (vs. a great fort save).&nbsp; So, again, Spring Attack will typically result in low damage output (paltry by level 9 standards), no effective stunning fist attack, and not a very effective result.The whole &quot;use a reach weapon&quot; is great with a monk.&nbsp; Use a feat, proficiency halberd or whatever.&nbsp; Hit them with it at 10' or trip them, if they come inside to 5' kick them with your unarmed strike.&nbsp; Do this when enlarged for 20' reach with the weapon, and 10' reach with feet/head/elbows.&nbsp; Very nice combo with combat reflexes, and will be infiinitely more constructive I feel than spring attack, which eats up THREE precious feats.&nbsp; Ugh.This way, the monk is not springing in/out and having no effect on the enemy; he's controlling the battlefield via reach, stopping bad guys from running through to the back lines; getting extra attacks via AOO's all the time, etc.&nbsp; Honestly, simple reach sounds a lot more effective to me than spring attack, particularly if you get a cheap enlarge 3x day item.&nbsp; Hit them at 20', take some Aoo's, etc.&nbsp; The monk is still not getting full attacked in return.&nbsp; Eh, whatever.&nbsp; I'd better stop being obnoxious.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="two, post: 1696579, member: 9002"] [b]Spring attack trap[/b] I still feel like spring attack is a trap for a monk. The "spring in/stun monster/then stay if it is stunned or spring back out if it is not" sounds great on paper. Sounds solid. But... But in play, the Monk's Stunning Fist DC goes up a lot slower than enemy fort saves. Most CR8, 9+ monsters that can be stunned in the first place have +11 or +12 to their fort save. Meaning, that the monk has to first HIT the monster, and then the monster needs to fail the save. The probablily of that (vs. a DC18 stunning fist, for example) is what? Let's say the monk needs a "12" to hit the AC, and the monster needs to roll lower than a "7" to fail. That's 8/20 chances, follows by 6/20 chances, which is 12% chance that it will work, roughly. Yes, this is against "not bad" fort save monsters. Because, if you are attacking something with a bad fort save (rogue, wizard, rogue, some rare types of monsters) the monk does not NEED to spring in and stun and leave. Typically, the monk needs to rush in a grapple/or full attack. In other words, the time when Spring Attack is must useful (vs. a scary melee threat) is precisely the time when stunning first is least useful (vs. a great fort save). So, again, Spring Attack will typically result in low damage output (paltry by level 9 standards), no effective stunning fist attack, and not a very effective result. The whole "use a reach weapon" is great with a monk. Use a feat, proficiency halberd or whatever. Hit them with it at 10' or trip them, if they come inside to 5' kick them with your unarmed strike. Do this when enlarged for 20' reach with the weapon, and 10' reach with feet/head/elbows. Very nice combo with combat reflexes, and will be infiinitely more constructive I feel than spring attack, which eats up THREE precious feats. Ugh. This way, the monk is not springing in/out and having no effect on the enemy; he's controlling the battlefield via reach, stopping bad guys from running through to the back lines; getting extra attacks via AOO's all the time, etc. Honestly, simple reach sounds a lot more effective to me than spring attack, particularly if you get a cheap enlarge 3x day item. Hit them at 20', take some Aoo's, etc. The monk is still not getting full attacked in return. Eh, whatever. I'd better stop being obnoxious. [/QUOTE]

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