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Help: Gap between AC and defenses seems too large.
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<blockquote data-quote="(Psi)SeveredHead" data-source="post: 5569729" data-attributes="member: 1165"><p>I ran a session of Dark Sun today, and a specific complaint came up.</p><p></p><p>It started with the barbarian player complaining about his attack bonus vs enemy AC bonuses, but also some other players said monster attack bonuses vs defenses were too high. I countered by pointing out they could only hit half the time. Against AC.</p><p></p><p>Turns out both of us were right.</p><p></p><p>Here's how my group's PCs turn out, in terms of AC and defenses. They're all 4th-level, and they all have inherent bonuses, so that's like having +1 armor and +1 cloaks of resistance.</p><p></p><p>Telepath: AC 17; Fort 15, Ref 17, Will 19. General attack bonus: +7 vs Will.</p><p></p><p>Shaman: AC: 20 ; Fort 16 ; Ref 19 ; Will 17. General attack bonus: +5 or +8 vs non-AC defense. (He's an odd build. He boost Int instead of Wis, which makes one of his non-standard at-wills <em>really</em> strong.)</p><p></p><p>Barbarian: AC 20; Fort 19, Ref 17, Will 16. General attack bonus: +9 vs AC. (He's using an axe.) His Reflex defense used to be lower, but he traded his Dex and Con scores. A little non-standard, but not a real problem.</p><p></p><p>Bard: AC: 17; Fort: 11, Ref: 15, Will: 16 (these are his 3rd-level stats; I don't have an up-to-date character sheet but all defenses should increase by 2, so AC 19/Fort 13/Ref 17/Will 18 is probably right)</p><p></p><p>Psychic Warrior: AC 22; Fort 17, Ref 16, Will 18. General attack bonus +9 vs AC (broadsword), +7 vs anything else.</p><p></p><p>Rogue: AC: 22 Fort: 15 Reflex: 22 Will: 16. General attack bonus +11 vs AC, and also vs Ref as he has Piercing Strike. This character spent a feat on boosting AC and severely min-maxed their Dex score, leaving them with the greatest general gap between good AC and poor defense. <em>In addition</em>, being a halfling with the Artful Dodger trait, this character's AC against opportunity attacks is so high I've had to design psychic warrior NPCs who could reasonably hit them when they target someone other than said psychic warrior. However, his Fort and Will are <em>so</em> weak that any kind of controller (or Will-targeting artillery) is likely to leave his low hit-point-character moaning in pain.</p><p></p><p>The rogue and bard players couldn't make it last session (summer for university students).</p><p></p><p>They generally face opponents of 4th to 5th level, so you're looking at attacks vs AC of +9 or +10, and attacks vs other defenses of +7 to +9 (controllers tend to do a bit better here). Opponents tend to have AC 19 or 20 and other defenses of 17 to 18.</p><p></p><p>One of their opponents in the last encounter was a 5th-level controller with an attack bonus of +9 vs Will. Only one PC had any defenses high enough to make hitting it hard (and it <em>wasn't</em> Will).</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, another NPC was a 5th-level soldier, with an attack bonus of +10 (hits the barbarian half the time... aren't they supposed to be brutes?) but an AC of 21 (40-45% hit chance from most attacking PCs).</p><p></p><p>(The NPCs in question? There were two encounters. The first was deliberately "easy". The second came <em>right after</em> the first, so no restoring encounter powers. The second consisted of: An elf noble fighter [soldier, Monster Vault] leveled to 5th, a custom-made eladrin wizard [controller, using Essentials enchanter-flavored powers], a custom-made elf rogue [skirmisher, using Essentials Tactical Trick as a recharge rather than at-will] and an elf raid leader [artillery, Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium]).</p><p></p><p>The problem I'm running into? In order to come up with someone who can reliably hit the barbarian, psychic warrior or rogue (against their AC), I need to come up with an opponent of such high level their ACs become unhittable to the PCs. Paired with controllers they can support, and the controllers hit those non-AC defenses too reliably. (Even in the case of that enchanter, whose every attack was vs Will!) I see very few complaints (at least about hitting) from the spellcasters. Enemy non-AC defenses seem fine, maybe a point too high, but that's because I over-level them slightly.</p><p></p><p>I thought about lowering NPC levels and giving them leader support (the type that give out attack bonuses), but I'd have some of the same issues (hitting PC non-AC defenses would still be too easy, and hitting their ACs might be too hard). And I can't use high level soldiers and lower level controllers, as the monster AC problem would still be ... a problem.</p><p></p><p>So it seems to me the gap between AC and non-AC defenses is too high. I'm thinking about handing out the AC-boosting Essentials feats for free but <em>not</em> the other-defense boosting feats (I'll ban those), which would leave me free to use slightly higher-level NPCs.</p><p></p><p>The barbarian player suggested I come up with flavorful explanations for why, say, a half-giant's at-will attack is hitting Fortitude instead.</p><p></p><p>But I was wondering if other DMs had advice? Do you run into this issue?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="(Psi)SeveredHead, post: 5569729, member: 1165"] I ran a session of Dark Sun today, and a specific complaint came up. It started with the barbarian player complaining about his attack bonus vs enemy AC bonuses, but also some other players said monster attack bonuses vs defenses were too high. I countered by pointing out they could only hit half the time. Against AC. Turns out both of us were right. Here's how my group's PCs turn out, in terms of AC and defenses. They're all 4th-level, and they all have inherent bonuses, so that's like having +1 armor and +1 cloaks of resistance. Telepath: AC 17; Fort 15, Ref 17, Will 19. General attack bonus: +7 vs Will. Shaman: AC: 20 ; Fort 16 ; Ref 19 ; Will 17. General attack bonus: +5 or +8 vs non-AC defense. (He's an odd build. He boost Int instead of Wis, which makes one of his non-standard at-wills [i]really[/i] strong.) Barbarian: AC 20; Fort 19, Ref 17, Will 16. General attack bonus: +9 vs AC. (He's using an axe.) His Reflex defense used to be lower, but he traded his Dex and Con scores. A little non-standard, but not a real problem. Bard: AC: 17; Fort: 11, Ref: 15, Will: 16 (these are his 3rd-level stats; I don't have an up-to-date character sheet but all defenses should increase by 2, so AC 19/Fort 13/Ref 17/Will 18 is probably right) Psychic Warrior: AC 22; Fort 17, Ref 16, Will 18. General attack bonus +9 vs AC (broadsword), +7 vs anything else. Rogue: AC: 22 Fort: 15 Reflex: 22 Will: 16. General attack bonus +11 vs AC, and also vs Ref as he has Piercing Strike. This character spent a feat on boosting AC and severely min-maxed their Dex score, leaving them with the greatest general gap between good AC and poor defense. [i]In addition[/i], being a halfling with the Artful Dodger trait, this character's AC against opportunity attacks is so high I've had to design psychic warrior NPCs who could reasonably hit them when they target someone other than said psychic warrior. However, his Fort and Will are [i]so[/i] weak that any kind of controller (or Will-targeting artillery) is likely to leave his low hit-point-character moaning in pain. The rogue and bard players couldn't make it last session (summer for university students). They generally face opponents of 4th to 5th level, so you're looking at attacks vs AC of +9 or +10, and attacks vs other defenses of +7 to +9 (controllers tend to do a bit better here). Opponents tend to have AC 19 or 20 and other defenses of 17 to 18. One of their opponents in the last encounter was a 5th-level controller with an attack bonus of +9 vs Will. Only one PC had any defenses high enough to make hitting it hard (and it [i]wasn't[/i] Will). On the other hand, another NPC was a 5th-level soldier, with an attack bonus of +10 (hits the barbarian half the time... aren't they supposed to be brutes?) but an AC of 21 (40-45% hit chance from most attacking PCs). (The NPCs in question? There were two encounters. The first was deliberately "easy". The second came [i]right after[/i] the first, so no restoring encounter powers. The second consisted of: An elf noble fighter [soldier, Monster Vault] leveled to 5th, a custom-made eladrin wizard [controller, using Essentials enchanter-flavored powers], a custom-made elf rogue [skirmisher, using Essentials Tactical Trick as a recharge rather than at-will] and an elf raid leader [artillery, Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium]). The problem I'm running into? In order to come up with someone who can reliably hit the barbarian, psychic warrior or rogue (against their AC), I need to come up with an opponent of such high level their ACs become unhittable to the PCs. Paired with controllers they can support, and the controllers hit those non-AC defenses too reliably. (Even in the case of that enchanter, whose every attack was vs Will!) I see very few complaints (at least about hitting) from the spellcasters. Enemy non-AC defenses seem fine, maybe a point too high, but that's because I over-level them slightly. I thought about lowering NPC levels and giving them leader support (the type that give out attack bonuses), but I'd have some of the same issues (hitting PC non-AC defenses would still be too easy, and hitting their ACs might be too hard). And I can't use high level soldiers and lower level controllers, as the monster AC problem would still be ... a problem. So it seems to me the gap between AC and non-AC defenses is too high. I'm thinking about handing out the AC-boosting Essentials feats for free but [i]not[/i] the other-defense boosting feats (I'll ban those), which would leave me free to use slightly higher-level NPCs. The barbarian player suggested I come up with flavorful explanations for why, say, a half-giant's at-will attack is hitting Fortitude instead. But I was wondering if other DMs had advice? Do you run into this issue? [/QUOTE]
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